So am I overfeeding my fish/tank? (high nitrates/cyano)

[AustinVines]

Brief history. Tank was running for two years before 3 weeks ago when I bought it from its owner, moved it 250 miles, ditched the sand bed and 60# of rock, added new aragonite and did a 50% mud change on the miracle mud filter - 24" long, 10" wide tank with 3 sections: 1) overflow with bioballs. These are mostly submerged and may keep the splashing from the overflow to a minimum. I have a Precision Marine HOT skimmer in this section. 2) The second section is the mud/macro section. It is the largest section by far. The "miracle" mud is about 2 inches deep and it came with chaeto as the macro. It is illuminated at least 12h/day by a 6500k cf bulb that I saw on Melevs site. I have a piece of LR in this section as well. This section leads to an overflow baffle which leads down, through more chaeto-covered bioballs (covered by small pieces of the chaeto that break off the main bunch), into 3) the return section which stays fairly clear that houses a mag7.

Here is a picture of my tank 3 weeks ago


I have 7 fish. Most are small sized currently. Pair of oc. clowns, 2 blennys, a purple tang, a flame angel and a 6 line wrasse.

The fish were being fed Formula 2 flake, nori and cyclopeeze (rarely). I have no idea what a small pinch means (I cook and a pinch of salt to me is 1.5 teaspoons and know it isn't that much) and I started measuring my feedings.

Morning: 1/8 t Dainichi Marine pellet; 1/8 t Dainichi Marine Herbavore pellet; a 2x3 piece of nori.
Evening: Every other day, alternate between 1/2 cube of frozen mysis (either the larger freshwater variety or the tiny marine variety) and a 1/4t of the Dainichi and a pinch of the F1 (prob 1/16th tsp?)

Is this too much? They seem to finish in about five minutes but some will hit the ground. I also have a large brittle star, 5 peppermint shrimp and 2 skunk cleaners with around 35 dwarf blues (from very small to medium), 15 ceriths and 15 nassarius and prob 4-5 turbos. The two dwarf hermits that were in the tank when I got it immediately killed the two new snails when they arrived and someone thought that they could have been starving (or perhaps outgrowing their shells).

I feed with all pumps on and the fish like to eat it out of the column. I tried with the pump and PHs off but the fish seemed confused and the bubble coral started spewing zooxanth, so I don't want to do that again. Maybe turn off the main but leave the PHs on? I have a serious cyano outbreak and nitrates are at around 30ppm after 2 days of 10g water changes each day. I have been advised to just keep up with WCs and let the tank break-in but the red slime with bubbles underneath it is not pleasant to look at. I use RO water for my waterchanges and topoff. I just got a TDS meter that I will use on the RO water I get to see if that could be an issue.

Thanks for the tips

[JF]

I thought I overfed for a long time too, I had red algae all over. Turns out that I didn't have enough circulation in the tank. Stirred up the sand, a few big water changes (25%) and added a couple of powerheads.

As far as the high nitrates, could very well be your RO water, a TDS meter is mandatory.

FWIW, I only feed about a teaspoon or so every other day (or so!). Haven't lost a fish in some time. I have roughly the same load as you, I would think you may be overfeeding a bit too. 30 is not the end of the world for nitrates, though. I think I had 60+ the first year or two of my hobby, didn't notice much issue. Water changes and flow are the key.

It's hard, though, if you're like me - you walk by the tank, all the fish swim at you with that "Feed me!" look on their face..... :^)

[Sk8r]

Bioballs are sometimes used successfully in FOWLR tanks, but if testing your water doesn't turn up a problem with water source, you might look at those, and query others about this. Bioballs are notorious in coral tanks for promoting nitrate---they are also useful in FOWLR tanks because of the heavy load, but it's worth a question whether these are serving as they need to. In general, in my own corals tank, I don't do any filtration at all: things just settle and the live rock and the worms get them.

Some people have elected to remove bioballs because of nitrates, but if you decide that it's not your water, and that that's what you need to do, do it piece at a time, giving the sandbed time enough to respond to the increased food and for bacteria there to multiply to take up the job of what you're removing.

And do ask around about: I'm no authority on FOWLR tanks.

[JF]

Oh yeah - I agree about the bioballs, I guess I skimmed right past that. I had a big wet/dry for awhile, and eventually removed all the bioballs as well. Made a noticeable difference in nitrate reduction.

[rsxs1212]

i have also read that the bioballs are not great because they build up nitrates. i was advised not to use them myself. I would check more though since im not 100%. Another thing that i would check on is your skimmer, i was running a prizm and i had the red algae with bubles all over. I switched to a coralife super skimmer and all of it disapeered in days!! i was amazed by the difference. I am not sure if thats your problem, just my advice and what has happened to me

[AustinVines]

I was no sold on the bioballs from the beginning but didn't want to rock the boat with a new set-up, but will be removing them as I go along.

If the sump is letting macro pass into the return area, is there anything I can use that won't become a nitrate sink or should I even worry about it? I assume that the algae that gets run through the mag7 as it travels back into the tank will become either a nitrate source. Is this right? Is there anything to put between the macro fuge and the return that would keep this at bay? Many thanks.

[flameangel88]

I have a Eheim wet/dry with the original media 9Eheim Efisubstrat)--Does anyone know this will cause high nitrate (40+)? I've been battling nitrate for the last 2 weeks with wcs twice a week with 10% each time along with gravel vacuum but nitrate haven't degreased. Everything in the tank looks good and ammonia and nitrite near 0. Thanks.

[rsxs1212]

well i dont know what you could put there but i was just reading a thread about filterless tanks. No sponges,floss,...what soever. Just the skimmer and carbon in the sump. It was really quite shocking to me considering all the things i do to my filters to keep my tank clean when i find out all people have been using is their skimmers!!!it really makes sense though. all things that are not disolved still get sucked through the skimmer, rise up with the foam, and are in the collection cup. really quite interesting!!

[Sk8r]

Re keeping macro in an area of the sump, go to a hobby store that sells needlecraft supplies, and get what is called plastic canvas. It comes in sheets for .50 and one sheet of that gridwork plastic pinned against one chamber of your sump will prevent cheato from escaping into the other chambers.

Ditto the ladies' solution for carbon bags: kneehigh nylons, use and toss.

I don't run any filter media whatsoever. I have a lot of floating stuff, well, more than some purists would like, but my water is clear and my bristleworms are fat. The rate at which the invert contents of my tank can produce poo is truly amazing. The spionid worms alone keep the atmosphere--hem!---charged. Not to mention the snails and hermits. They're my filters. Most of the time I don't even run carbon. I respect the Eheim pumps: they're great for a cleanup job, but all I've got is an Urchin skimmer in my 10 gallon overcrowded sump. I have a light on the downfall chamber, where I have cheato with the plastic canvas backstop, I have my skimmer in the next chamber, then my heater, and finally my return pump, a mag 9.5 something-or-another. That goes up to a 1/2 inch Sea Swirl mounted in the corner of my 52, and the downflow hose is about 2 inches diameter, so things move through fairly fast. Good circulation helps in a filterless tank, IMHO, unless you've got a big refugium, and mine is minuscule. I use carbon only when something has gotten annoyed, and then pull and toss. I don't allow carbon to stay in more than 3 days, because when it's taken care of the bad stuff, it starts removing micro-nutrients my corals need, and if it really stays too long even the carbon can become a nitrate problem, as it coats over with bacteria and becomes like bioballs itself.
HTH with some wandering but at least specific info on one filterless system.

[flameangel88]

SK8r, thanks for the info.

[xbenx92713]

well...first of all flow is one of the most important things of a tank...keeps everything in motion and doesnt let anything settle, next bio balls...could be from cleaning them...or taking them out...the bacteria grows and when you remove them it spikes the system...you have to take a little out at a time...i personally dont use them at all...also skimmers...i agree you really dont need all the filters and stuff cuz it all goes in the skimmer but carbon is a must

[AustinVines]

Good ideas. I bought some filter floss (looks like furnace filter or pillow ticking) and when I get rid of the balls, I am going to plug it in and just toss it after a month or so. For $1 a month, I can handle that. I am running carbon in the first section of the sump and my water is clear besides all the cyano.

[xbenx92713]

just make sure when you take out the bio ball dont take them all out at once...take a little bit at a time because that might be used as your main bacteria for your tank...if you take it all out it might have to cycle again which would be bad!

[NCreefwannabe]

I feed my fish at least 3 times a day. But they each get 2 small flakes or so and thats it. I also only have 3 fish, but I like the smaller feedings more often approach beter. I still have some diatoms left around thats going away, and I havent changed anything.

[Toddrtrex]

Another thing to consider, you just moved the tank. I don't care how careful you were, the tank was disturbed. I would suggest doing 10% weekly water changes. (using RO/DI water)
I recently (5 weeks ago) moved, while my 58 was fine, my 75 (which was a bit overstocked prior to the move) had an outbreak of cyno. I been staying on top of my WCs and it is getting better each week.

HTH

[AustinVines]

I plan on just removing probably a 1/4 of the bioballs in the last section, those that are completely submerged, every day until they are gone. The ones in the overflow section are there mainly for splash control I think. Any ideas on how to keep the salt creep to a min if I remove the bioballs bc it is going to splash once they are gone.

I am certainly on top of the water changes. I am trying 10g a day until the nitrates get under control and then will probably go to 10g a week if other params are normal. I know it is just the growing pains of a moved/new to me tank but I am somewhat freaked out by the slime everywhere. It is sometimes like a blanket and I have snails and hermits whose shells are cyano covered. The fish seem ok and the few corals I have seem to be dealing with it so I am not too worried ( but it is a little organic having everything covered in red slime).

[rsxs1212]

yeah the same thing happened to my tank with the red slime all over everything. my corals are doing OK though and once your nitrates are down it will slowly disapeer. keep up with the waterchanges and dont let detrius sit at the floss long enough to break down into nitrates and youll be fine. keep up the good work!!!

[AustinVines]

Ok. Nitrates are going down (under 20 this morning) but the cyano is out of control. I am just feeding nori in the morning and when I get home. At night, they eat the food I give them in about 4 minutes.

Here are some pics that I took over the weekend. The cyano goes beserk after about 7 hours under the lights but declines afterwards until lights out. It is almost "gone" by morning but comes back strong. It is covering everything except the corals here. All the live rock except for that large piece of tonga on the left side of the tank are covered with bubbles trapped under slime. Notwithstanding the red slime, my bubble coral appears very happy!






I will keep you updated

[JF]

You need flow, bro. I see a couple of heads up in the top back corners, try putting them down on the floor of the tank (but not so close they suck up sand).

Not the best look in the world, but my tank went from looking like yours to almost clear of the bad stuff.

I have a 125g tank, and I simply put a couple small heads (around 100gph each) in the front bottom corners, shooting long ways across the tanks. I have mine pointed at the rocks, but some say to point them directly at each other.

I have a colt that seems to love the flow, as well a flower pot (though he's been closed up for several days now after a few weeks of extension, so the verdict is still out on him).

Regardless, do a water change and suck most of the algae out that you can, then aim your powerheads to skim the surface and the rocks, and I bet you'll see a huge improvement.

[Anemonebuff]

Skim wet.

Blow the cyano off with a turkey baster.

Use some Rowaphos.

Add more flow. A Tunze stream and/or some Seios.

Add some more turbos and add astrea snails.

[rsxs1212]

OK im looking to add more flow to my tank just for corals sake........is it OK to add flow after your tank has been established for about a year and everything is adapted to the flow you have???? i want more flow though!!

[Ovaltine]

try seachem purigen in the bags, that stuff is absolutely amazing. brings nitrates down to 0 . no joke. drop two bags in your sump or place in an area where flow goes through the bags. in a week you will see your nitrates disappear. it can't hurt with that cyano either, i had a little on some new live rock that was fully cured which i put in the tank , and the reduction in nitrates and the purigen's ability to absorb a host of things has made it virtually disappear. again, that's seachem purigen in bags. it lasts six months without changing, and then you can reenergize it easily. best stuff to come out in years.

[Anemonebuff]

Originally posted by rsxs1212
OK im looking to add more flow to my tank just for corals sake........is it OK to add flow after your tank has been established for about a year and everything is adapted to the flow you have???? i want more flow though!!

Not a problem at all. The corals will enjoy it as long as you do not direct the flow right at them.

[Anemonebuff]

Originally posted by Ovaltine
TRY SEACHEM PURIGEN IN THE BAGS, THAT STUFF IS ABSOLUTELY AMAZING. BRINGS NITRATES DOWN TO 0 . NO JOKE. DROP TWO BAGS IN YOUR SUMP OR PLACE IN AN AREA WHERE FLOW GOES THROUGH THE BAGS. IN A WEEK YOU WILL SEE YOUR NITRATES DISAPPEAR. IT CAN'T HURT WITH THAT CYANO EITHER, I HAD A LITTLE ON SOME NEW LIVE ROCK THAT WAS FULLY CURED WHICH I PUT IN THE TANK , AND THE REDUCTION IN NITRATES AND THE PURIGEN'S ABILITY TO ABSORB A HOST OF THINGS HAS MADE IT VIRTUALLY DISAPPEAR. AGAIN, THAT'S SEACHEM PURIGEN IN BAGS. IT LASTS SIX MONTHS WITHOUT CHANGING, AND THEN YOU CAN REENERGIZE IT EASILY. BEST STUFF TO COME OUT IN YEARS.

Please do not use all CAPS. It is how you yell on a computer. It also hurts the eyes.

[mhurley]

I fixed that little problem for him.