Cyanobacteria outbreak again (help please)

[dpsa98]

Hello Everyone,

My tank is about 3 months old and I went through the normal algae outbreaks and they went away just fine soo far. A few weeks ago I had a cyanobacteria outbreak. Over 2 weeks I did 3 - 15% water changes and scrubbed the glass almost daily. The cyano stayed. Under hesitation I used chemi clean (followed directions to the T). Cyano went away but now I have tons of bubbles comming from my protein skimmer after I turned it back on. Today besides the bubbles I noticed a red tint and red looiing dust on my glass and powerheads again. I think the cyanobacteria is back, only 4 days after It dissapeared with the chemi clean. I guess my question is these are my water parameters (are they ok) and if not what should I do or add to repair them? Also what are the bubbles from after the chemi clean treatment and should I use the chemi clean again?

Salinity 1.023
PH 8.0
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 20 (I know it's high, I did a 20 % water change after chemi clean but nitrates remain high)
CA 360 (low I think)
KH 13.8
Alk 4.91

I just got the KH/Alk test so if I read the chart correctly thoes are my correct readings. Im not sure what they really should be.

My tank is 25 gal deep with 175W MH lighting , 28W x 2 blue actintic bulbs and moon light. MH on for about 10-12 hrs a day. Actitics on with MH all day + 2 hrs after. Moon lights on all night.

In my tank I have a few hard corals , plate coral, a few zoanthid frags and frag of fragspawn. I do not have any fish as of yet I want to make sure I can keep the corals and proper water parameters prior to fish ( although my wife would have prefered me to do only fish , she said "how can you enjoy stairing at a bunch of rocks") It's comments like that that can cause a divorce

Almost forgot im not sure if this helps but I use phytoplankton for the zooanthids and corals. I have a cleaner shrimp and 2 turbo snails, 1 blue legged hermit crab I feed bryne shrimp. I also have a reef solution formula . I use very very small amounts of these products about 1/4 cap of phytoplankton and hardly any bryne shrimp and about 1/4 cap of reef solution formula about every 3 days.
I also have kent marine liquid calcium and kent marine superbuffer.



Anyway I would like to thank you for your help in advance.

Dave

[Monkeyfish]

Cyano in new tanks is not uncommon, but it sounds like you may be overdoing it with the phytoplankton. Cyano is usually caused by too much nutrient in the water column (which would also account for your high nitrates). Lay off the phyto for awhile and make sure you don't have any "deadspots" -areas where the water is not moving.

[Sk8r]

Your water parameters are way off. Before treating anything again or putting in snails to try to help this, let's solve the water quality issue. You don't have any particulate filter, bioballs, or sponge anywhere in the system, do you? If you do, withdraw it at the rate of 1 handful---test---another handful---test. Etc.
Perform a 20% water change. That will lower the nitrate. If we don't do some rapid water improvement, the corals will suffer.
Skim wet, keep dumping. You may need another pump to hype that flow. Maybe a sea swirl on one of those powerheads.
You need to be nitrate 0 for those corals. Add calcium, aiming for at least 400, up to 450. The alk will start to drop, and should be 8.3-11. With all this change going on, test compulsively, watching ph, which should get to 8.e.
Do not add alk when you add cal: it will 'snow' in your tank, not a good thing. Give it at least 12 hours between.

Cal has to settle through the system to get a good reading: it will be correctly readable in 24 hours after adding.

HTH.

[dpsa98]

I do not have a sump yet so I have no bio balls I have 2 aquaclear 30 powerheads. Im not sure what you mean by skim wet. I can get another powerhead if I need it , these move 175 gph each. How should I place the powerheads. on opposite sides of the tank faceing eachother or one low and one high on opposite sides? I am ready to do a water change right now I have pre mixed salt water. I will do that and then get back to you later tonight with the readings. I will check back in a hour or so to see if I need to do anything else tonight. Thank you once again.

Dave

[Sk8r]

The main thing is to get flow into all zones of the tank, so that no nook is unstirred. That will go a long way toward solving your cyano while we're at it, but it will also make sure there is flow enough for the corals. I'd create as much chaos in the flow as possible. "Skim wet" means to adjust the skimmer to produce a really soppy wet skimmate, taking more water out faster than you usually let it, in the interests of getting crud out of your water fast as possible. "Skim dry" means allow very little water, and let the skimmate be dark and scant.

[mike89t]

Chemi-Clean kills the cyano but doesn't cure the problem.

You need to get your nutrients under control. That is your problem.

[Sk8r]

I agree on the nutrients issue, too. That and flow.

[Monkeyfish]

I agree that the calcium needs to come up(400-450ppm), but that has nothing to do with the cyano problem. Overfeeding the tank and adding too much organics into the water is what's causing the bacterial outbreak.

"Wetskimming" means that you set your skimmer so you get more of a liquid rather than thick gooey skimmate. The cup will fill
up faster.

I'd place the powerheads on opposite sides of the tank, in the back corners and aim them so they are pointed at the front-middle of the tank.

[choyn006]

please do remember that chemi clean is a short term "fix", but is not the solution. i would take the advice above from sk8r, cut back on feedings producing organic waste, add more flow, and don't add any more critters until it's gone.

[dpsa98]

I LOVE YOU ALL......I just did my 20 % water change and my salinity is 1.024. Im guessing I have to wait a few hours to get the correct water readings. Once I get them I will add calcium and whatever else I need . What should all of my parameters be I know what the basics should be like Nitrate , Nitrite, Amonia,Calcium and PH but what should my alkalinity and Carbonate be at also? I have kent superbuffer but Im not sure what #'s should be before I need to add that.

I will keep this post updated as I have changes. Im moving my powerheads right now.

Thanks ,

Dave

[dpsa98]

Ok I adjusted the powerheads and I set the skimmer to a "wetflow" If I did this correctly I have it pulling water in very rapidly and pushing water out rapidly also creating bubbles in the tank.

[Sk8r]

Your readings should be, ideally:
alk 8.3-11
cal 400-450
mg 1200 [test only if alk and cal won't stay up]
salinity 1.024-6
ammonia 0
nitrite 0
nitrate 0,
temp 80.

Right on the flow. This will help. Hype the flow, don't feed the tank at all for a couple of days, adjust the calcium level upward, let the alkalinity fall a bit, and your corals and fish all should feel more comfortable in their skins. Your inverts should come out and get to work.
Also, there is some word that trochus snails will actually eat cyano. I'm not sure, but it's worth trying it.
With increased flow, decreased food and skimming and water changes, you should see better behavior from the tank.

[kevin2000]

Some simple suggestions

Up the quantity and frequency of your water changes .. 15% water changes are inadequate when you have water quality issues. Do a search for theads dealing with cyano and phosphate .. common issue with a zillion posts discussing the problem.

Throw away the phyto .. your tank doesn't need that .. your zoas are the "weeds" of a reef tank and feeding those makes no sense. if you having any other special additive consider tossing those as well .. often as not there going to do nothing but degrade your water quality.

[dpsa98]

Sk8r It says you have been doing this for 40 years what type of tank did you start out with when you first started in saltwater.

[Sk8r]

A 5 gallon metaframe freshwater was my start with several zebrafish and a catfish, with a little ceramic grass hut. No filter. In those days there was no chloramine in town water, so I got along fine. I was younger than 7.
My first saltwater was a two gallon seahorse tank, which I got by reason of the fact I suddenly owned a seahorse. The lfs I went to in college was abysmally careless with its ornaments. They were always falling over on the fish. I got a piranha for 50 cents who was supposed to be dead, brought him back, rescued a seahorse the same way, and being flush, got a female, a two gallon tank and a small booklet on seahorses. I actually ran it successfully with a bubbler, a heater, and a floating hydrometer for most of the year, until some fools downstairs threw a cocktail party that generated so much cigarette smoke it was coming through the floors of our apartment in visible clouds and making a pall above our heads. It got our horses...sigh.
I've had tanks, fresh, brackish, and salt, most of my life---lately only salt.

[dpsa98]

Very nice I hope I can enjoy saltwater tanks as long as you have. I have 3 kids who help me with everything I have done so far. I would love to see them keep an interest in this when they get older.

[Sk8r]

I thought I was giving them up for good when I sold my 100g reef (and two indoor ponds [know what you can do with those ridiculous 1950's indoor planters?]) and second 30 gal reef and 2 300 gallon freshwaters...sigh

Five years and the width of the continent away, here I am, starting another reef with yet one more reef-keeping method. I'm delighted to keep corals I could never have kept in the old wet-dry tank. Love it!

Your kids will cherish the memories of working with you, no question. It gets into your way of thinking...hmm, that's a bare-looking wall...it needs something...
And there you are. Hooked.

[dpsa98]

Your not kidding about bieng Hooked. I know how important it is to be patient in this Hobby I guess you would call it. My kids love to stand at the tank and see whats going to happen next or what im going to add next. I will not be adding anything else for a bit till I get my water in check. I did my water changes a few hours ago and here are my readings.
Salinity 1.024
PH 8.6
Amonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 15
Calcium 375
KH 16.6
Alk 5.93

I have liquid calcium I can add to get my calcium up.
And I have superbuffer that I can add, will the superbuffer get my kh and alk in check? If there is anything else I need to do just let me know and I will "git 'er done" just kidding I will take care of whatever I need to. I know they said the smaller the tank the harder to take care of but the 25gal is all I had space for. I plan on making a sump for it next month, until then I will make due with what I have.

Dave

[Sk8r]

Your kh/alk is already higher than needs be. Don't add any more buffer: it will only raise it.

Get the calcium up to about 400-450. One dose should do it, or at least make a good downpayment on it.

Ph is a little high. That will moderate as the cal/alk come in equilibrium. Alk will start to sink as more calcium processes through the system. Let it fall to 11 or lower, but not as low as 8.3. When it hits 8.3, you can dose buffer again to keep it in that middle range between 8.3 and 11.

We're left with those nitrates, then, but we've gained 5 points on that situation. Let's see what 24 hours does with no feeding, and that water change, and meanwhile the skimmer is running: keep that up. We can do another 20% change tomorrow, and then check the chemistry again. Just whittle away at this. Your corals will hopefully start responding more favorably. If they've lived through 20 nitrate, they're tough. But quick changes can be their own problem. Run a little carbon---you have activated carbon? Put that in a brand new kneehigh nylon and let it take out any ammonia that's going on. That will be a good job today, and then tomorrow morning check all the chemistry, and I'd almost plan on one more 20% water change, so you might prepare that tonight.

BTW---it's a good idea to check the nitrate level in your new salt water: some water sources are bad about increased nitrates, and it could even be coming in via your topoff water...ours is absolutely the pits, due to farm runoff. Are you using ro/di?

[dpsa98]

Im using RO water. I have some carbon already in a bag from my fluval canister filter I dont use. I can put that in. I will add my calcium tonight and prepare another 20% water change for tomorrow. I can check my water parameters when I get home for lunch , after work I will change water if I need to. I will keep posting right here my progress. I cant tell you how much I appreciate your help. I hope I can return the favor one day.

Thanks,
Dave

[binaryterror]

I had a HUGE cyano outbreak at the 6 month mark in my tank. I reduced my feeding to every other day, and cut my lights back to 5 hours a day (for hair algea mostly, had an outbreak of hair algea at the same time). Man was my tank FUGLY!!! I almost gave up. But as soon as I saw it get better, I got back into the hobby. That taught me to always try and fix the problem, rather than just give up. HTH!

[mike89t]

I had Cyano growing in high flow areas. So I don't think flow will help the Cyano issue.

This thread helped me with my Cyano problem:

http://www.reefcentral.com/forums/sh...hreadid=725686

[dpsa98]

Just got home from work and checked my tank. I did a 20% water change yesturday. These are my parameters as of about a half hour ago
PH 8.4
Amonia 0
Nitrites 0
Nitrates 20
Calcium 390 (after putting in 1/4 tsp of liquid calcium this morning)
KH 15.7
Alk 5.60

My tank is already starting to get a red tint to it agian. I have another 20% water change ready to go if I need it. Also should I cut back my lighting to 5-6 hours also, is it ok to keep on just the actintic lighting if I need to shut off the MH? I did not feed anything at all in the tank all day yesturday and I have not today either I will wait till Friday or Saturday to see if things clear up. Anything else I should do for now?

Thanks,
Dave

[Sk8r]

That calcium is being stubborn. That may be something. Unfortunately so are the nitrates being stubborn, right back up. I'm puzzled---and don't want to go on telling you try this and that without it working---
. Tell you what, since it's not responding to water change, take this thread over to Randy in Reef Chemistry, because this seems more than anything else a chemistry problem---and he's the resident chemist. Tell him what you've done, step by step, providing a good chronology, with readings, and see how fast he thinks that calcium level ought to be brought up. He usually answers very fast, and I'd hold the water change ready, but not do it until you have advice from him.
If you don't get an answer, I'll stand ready to help with all I know, but this problem is tenacious---I don't need to tell you that; but let's see if we can get a second opinion from the chemist.

[dpsa98]

Im not sure if this is good or bad but I already did the next 20% water change. I will bring the thread over to him though and see what he has to say also. But here is what I did today already and here are my water parameters as of now.
PH 8.4
Amonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 10
Cal 400
KH 15.7
Alk 5.60
I also added a bag of carbon to my tank. Im not sure how long to keep it in there though.

I will explain in the chemistry section and see what they say there . I will keep posted here also.

Dave