Would you suggest a grounding probe?

dreaminmel · 07/03/2006, 07:49 PM

I'm not all that educated on electricity but know enough to be careful around it so am wondering if I should invest in a grounding probe on my new tank upgrade?

I will have both 400 watt MH ballasts in the basement and directly connected to the circuit box (by an electrician so I'm sure that'll get done safely) and a couple of GFCI circuits for everything else to plug into via some power strips.

Equipment other than MH ballasts: 3 MJ 1200 powerheads, ViaAqua 3600 return pump, Turboflotor 1000 skimmer, two fans in canopy, moonlights, motor to rotate 1 of the powerheads continuously, Icecap ballast for the two 140 watt VHOs.

If a grounding probe is recommended, what is the proper way to use it? Plugged into one of the power strips or directly into one of the GFCIs?

Thanks in advance everyone... I'm starting to get a little paranoid with the increase in power looming before me.

(I was just reading about someone getting eye damage from their DE bulbs w/ no UV shield and got thinking about potential bodily harm...)

Hal · 07/03/2006, 08:01 PM

A grounding probe is recommended. It's cheap enough, and could save your life. The key here is its low cost. The likelihood of needing it is small, but if you do, you'll be glad you had it.

It shouldn't matter too much where you plug it in, assuming that your power strip has a three prong plug. Either way it will be shunted to the ground line in your house, which is what it is supposed to be connected to.

bureau13 · 07/03/2006, 08:36 PM

Go read the section in The Reef Aquarium vol 3 by Delbeek and Sprung....I'm not so sure a grounding probe is the good idea most people assume. I had one on my 55, and I've left it out of my 240. If you search around the forums, I believe the same subject is discussed. For myself, I haven't completely decided, but the argument against had merit I thought.

jds

Billybeau1 · 07/03/2006, 09:15 PM

I just went through this. The experts told me a ground probe is a great idea as long as you are using GFCI's. Preferably more than one so if one trips you still have circulation in your tank.

crustin · 07/03/2006, 09:21 PM

my question, if the ground probe, grounds out, and trips the gfci, do your fish live?

Billybeau1 · 07/03/2006, 09:24 PM

Thats why they recommended to me to have my load split between at least two GFCI's. If you only have one pump, well than, its either you.....or the fish

dreaminmel · 07/03/2006, 09:33 PM

I do not have access to either that book or the search function so figured I'd ask everyone here, plus the answers could be useful to any newbies who have yet to consider this.

I will have two separate GFCIs and will be splitting the circulation between them as a failsafe no matter what so that may help. I've been told that the grounding probes can relentlessly trip GFCIs though so am wondering if there is a way to avoid that? I'm planning on running all this by the electrician but don't know how much experience he has w/ this scenario so wanted a bit of background info in my back pocket so to speak.

crustin · 07/03/2006, 09:33 PM

i stuck my hands in a water make up trash can 1 time and got jolted, then i put the ground probe in and it kicked off the gfci. if it would have been my tank when i put the ground probe in would my fish be dead??

melev · 07/04/2006, 04:17 AM

Yes, you do want a grounding probe. I have one in the sump and one in the display tank.

If a breaker trips, the power is cut to your tank and your livestock is safe from electrocution. GFCI are designed to trip extremely quickly, to save your life. If you are being shocked by something in your tank, you need to get that resolved. The ground probe will protect you but not eliminate the problem if it exists.

lpkirby · 07/04/2006, 06:16 AM

seems like we are missing the point. If you trip something, you need to find out what caused it by unplugging one thing at a time to find the problem. Or you or your fish or your whole house might be sorry one day. Yes you need one!

samtheman · 07/04/2006, 06:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Hal
A grounding probe is recommended. It's cheap enough, and could save your life.

This is an untrue and unsupportable statement.

Hal · 07/04/2006, 08:27 AM

Quote:

This is an untrue and unsupportable statement

As opposed to your unsupported statement?

Ok, I've calmed down enough to delete my flame response.

I rather doubt the cost is being challenged, since that is usually less than $20, so it must be the "it could save your life".

Well, to be dramatic, let's spill some water on the floor and stand in it ('cause that NEVER happens when we work on our tanks

) put 10 amps at 110V into your fishtank and have people stick their arms into it without a grounding probe. After about the third or fourth death I think I'll have proven my point.

Ground probes shunt current to ground through a low resistance path. Current takes the lowest resistance path, so if it's the ground probe, it usually isn't you.

The only real debate is whether it injures the fish when you have a low current leak tank. By low, I mean one that is less than what it takes to trip the GFI. With a ground probe, you've provided a path to ground, so the current is constantly flowing through the water and fish to ground. Does this hurt the fish? Nobody knows, hence the debate.

If the ground probe isn't present, there's no current flow unless/until you stick your arm into the tank, and then the current flows through you to ground. Then the unfortunate person can personnaly discuss with Darwin how the process of natural selection just applied to them.

A mere 50mA is all that it takes to stop a beating heart. Keep in mind that most circuits on your house are 20A circuits. If I did my math correctly, that's 400 times more current than you need to kill.

Personally I'll keep the ground probe in my tank (two actually, one in the tank, one in the sump). A true low current leak is a lot less common than an all-out short.

Let's try to make this board and this post helpful. If you're going to disagree via such an antagonistic statement as is posted above, try to explain why. Then at least we can understand what you're thinking, and maybe somebody can learn from the discussion.

Billybeau1 · 07/04/2006, 08:43 AM

.

Billybeau1 · 07/04/2006, 08:44 AM

Well here is a couple of reads for you all. You can decide for yourself.

http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/strayvoltages.shtml

http://www.reefs.org/library/aquariu...98/1298_3.html

samtheman · 07/04/2006, 08:45 AM

There have been hundreds of posts concerning Ground Probes and GFCI devices on this and other web sites. GFCI devices are known safety devices. Ground probes are not. To suggest a ground probe will save someone's life is foolhardy and unsupported by any tests or studies. By your logic a lineman would first wrap a copper wire around his leg before ascending a pole. That way if he touches a live wire he is sure to die.

Do a search on this site and you will be able to read the many discussions on this topic. The only discussions supporting ground probes as a safety device are based on misguided opinions like yours. In many cases adding a probe will increase your chances of electrocution. So when telling others to install a "SAFETY" device, at least be sure it is a safety device.

Billybeau1 · 07/04/2006, 08:48 AM

Sam, I suggest you read the articles I've posted above.

samtheman · 07/04/2006, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Billybeau1
Sam, I suggest you read the articles I've posted above.

I read both of your articles and cannot see that either author has an electrical engineering degree. Ask any EE if they would use a ground probe "without" a GFCI and they will tell you "no", that would increase the dange level of the tank. Ask the same EE if they would utilize a GFCI and they will say yes every time. I suggest you read some of the threads on ground probes on this site as I suggested earlier. If ground probes are such a safety factor, why doesn't nation electrical code require them in a bathtub?

Hal · 07/04/2006, 10:41 AM

Quote:

By your logic a lineman would first wrap a copper wire around his leg before ascending a pole.

Um, by logic, you got that exactly wrong. At least I agree with your conclusion, he would die. (assuming the voltage was enough to overcome the resistance of skin, which it usually is)

Quote:

I read both of your articles and cannot see that either author has an electrical engineering degree.

You might want to reread the third sentence of the second article.

Quote:

Ask any EE if they would use a ground probe "without" a GFCI and they will tell you "no", that would increase the dange level of the tank. Ask the same EE if they would utilize a GFCI and they will say yes every time.

Nobody's debating whether a GFI is a good idea. Try to stay on point. (OK that was mean, but my patience is running out).

The question is would a EE use a ground probe in addition to a GFI. Now, where can I find an EE to answer that. Let me look around. Hey, I'm an EE. How about that. Would I use a ground probe? I think so. Are we done now?

samtheman · 07/04/2006, 11:36 AM

So am I. U of U 1964. And, you still have no evidence a ground probe is a safety device!

samtheman · 07/04/2006, 11:40 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by samtheman
[B] .

lpkirby · 07/04/2006, 11:48 AM

ok Boys and Girls, Lets all get along. Happy 4th Everyone! :-)

samtheman · 07/04/2006, 11:59 AM

So you would add a ground probe to a tank witout a GFCI? Now hold your hand on your lights that have a short in them and stick your hand in the water and tell me again about safety. You might be all right if you had GFCI but without one you may be dead. How did that ground probe help again?

futrtrubl · 07/04/2006, 12:30 PM

By providing a lower resistance path to ground perhaps? But again, they never said they wouldn't use a GFCI.

Edward

RichConley · 07/04/2006, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by samtheman
So you would add a ground probe to a tank witout a GFCI? Now hold your hand on your lights that have a short in them and stick your hand in the water and tell me again about safety. You might be all right if you had GFCI but without one you may be dead. How did that ground probe help again?

READ POSTS BEFORE YOU RESPOND.

IT HAS BEEN SAID REPEATEDLY THAT WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT USING A GROUND PROBE WITHOUT A GFCI. STOP BRINGING THAT UP. ITS NOT GERMAINE TO THE CONVERSATION.

THE QUESTION IS WHETHER SOMEONE WOULD USE A PROBE WITH A GFCI. WE ALL KNOW USING ONE WITHOUT A GFCI IS A BAD IDEA. THATS NOT WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT. IF YOU CAN'T READ THE THREAD AND STAY ON TOPIC, THEN STOP POSTING.

sorry bout the caps, but I felt it was the only way to get through.

samtheman · 07/04/2006, 01:26 PM

I bring up using a ground probe without a GFCI to illustrate that the GFCI is the safety device and not the ground probe. The statement that a ground probe is a safety device is what I strongly disagree with. If it is in fact a safety device, it should increase the safety of the tank without a GFCI, but it doesn't A ground probe is NOT a safety device.

As for reading a post before I respond, I did. The question I asked was not answered but avoided. Why don't you read the posts before responding? In fact, there is no documented use for a ground probe. It is a reefing myth started years ago to help lateral line disease. It was not added as a safety device. I feel giving others bad advice when it comes to safety is dangerous. Adding a grounding probe to any tank increases the danger of shock. Are you aware that GFCI's have a history of failure. That is why they come equipped with test buttons. They should be tested monthly. If one fails and you have a ground probe in place than you are in the situation that I keep bringing up.....that is a tank with a ground probe and no GFCI. So it is a valid question, because it is a situation that WILL occure.

07/03/2006, 07:49 PM	#1
dreaminmel Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Irondequoit, NY Posts: 4,758	Would you suggest a grounding probe? I'm not all that educated on electricity but know enough to be careful around it so am wondering if I should invest in a grounding probe on my new tank upgrade? I will have both 400 watt MH ballasts in the basement and directly connected to the circuit box (by an electrician so I'm sure that'll get done safely) and a couple of GFCI circuits for everything else to plug into via some power strips. Equipment other than MH ballasts: 3 MJ 1200 powerheads, ViaAqua 3600 return pump, Turboflotor 1000 skimmer, two fans in canopy, moonlights, motor to rotate 1 of the powerheads continuously, Icecap ballast for the two 140 watt VHOs. If a grounding probe is recommended, what is the proper way to use it? Plugged into one of the power strips or directly into one of the GFCIs? Thanks in advance everyone... I'm starting to get a little paranoid with the increase in power looming before me. (I was just reading about someone getting eye damage from their DE bulbs w/ no UV shield and got thinking about potential bodily harm...) __________________ ~Melanie~ Hiatus over, 120g in process "Ni lia duine na tuairim." (Everyone has their own opinion.)

07/03/2006, 09:21 PM	#5
crustin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ga. Posts: 470	my question, if the ground probe, grounds out, and trips the gfci, do your fish live? __________________ never give up Current Tank Info: 90g semi- reef

07/03/2006, 09:33 PM	#7
dreaminmel Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Irondequoit, NY Posts: 4,758	I do not have access to either that book or the search function so figured I'd ask everyone here, plus the answers could be useful to any newbies who have yet to consider this. I will have two separate GFCIs and will be splitting the circulation between them as a failsafe no matter what so that may help. I've been told that the grounding probes can relentlessly trip GFCIs though so am wondering if there is a way to avoid that? I'm planning on running all this by the electrician but don't know how much experience he has w/ this scenario so wanted a bit of background info in my back pocket so to speak. __________________ ~Melanie~ Hiatus over, 120g in process "Ni lia duine na tuairim." (Everyone has their own opinion.)

07/03/2006, 09:33 PM	#8
crustin Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: ga. Posts: 470	i stuck my hands in a water make up trash can 1 time and got jolted, then i put the ground probe in and it kicked off the gfci. if it would have been my tank when i put the ground probe in would my fish be dead?? __________________ never give up Current Tank Info: 90g semi- reef

07/04/2006, 12:30 PM	#23
futrtrubl Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Jamaica Posts: 154	By providing a lower resistance path to ground perhaps? But again, they never said they wouldn't use a GFCI. Edward __________________ how U mine for fish?!! Current Tank Info: Looking after the labs 250g and 2x 100g tanks

07/03/2006, 08:01 PM	#2
Hal Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Longmont, CO Posts: 1,889	A grounding probe is recommended. It's cheap enough, and could save your life. The key here is its low cost. The likelihood of needing it is small, but if you do, you'll be glad you had it. It shouldn't matter too much where you plug it in, assuming that your power strip has a three prong plug. Either way it will be shunted to the ground line in your house, which is what it is supposed to be connected to.

07/03/2006, 08:36 PM	#3
bureau13 Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: South Florida Posts: 1,936	Go read the section in The Reef Aquarium vol 3 by Delbeek and Sprung....I'm not so sure a grounding probe is the good idea most people assume. I had one on my 55, and I've left it out of my 240. If you search around the forums, I believe the same subject is discussed. For myself, I haven't completely decided, but the argument against had merit I thought. jds

07/03/2006, 09:15 PM	#4
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	I just went through this. The experts told me a ground probe is a great idea as long as you are using GFCI's. Preferably more than one so if one trips you still have circulation in your tank.

07/03/2006, 09:24 PM	#6
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	Thats why they recommended to me to have my load split between at least two GFCI's. If you only have one pump, well than, its either you.....or the fish

07/04/2006, 04:17 AM	#9
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	Yes, you do want a grounding probe. I have one in the sump and one in the display tank. If a breaker trips, the power is cut to your tank and your livestock is safe from electrocution. GFCI are designed to trip extremely quickly, to save your life. If you are being shocked by something in your tank, you need to get that resolved. The ground probe will protect you but not eliminate the problem if it exists.

07/04/2006, 06:16 AM	#10
lpkirby Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hempstead, TX Posts: 701	seems like we are missing the point. If you trip something, you need to find out what caused it by unplugging one thing at a time to find the problem. Or you or your fish or your whole house might be sorry one day. Yes you need one!

07/04/2006, 08:43 AM	#13
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	.

07/04/2006, 08:44 AM	#14
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	Well here is a couple of reads for you all. You can decide for yourself. http://article.dphnet.com/cat-02/strayvoltages.shtml http://www.reefs.org/library/aquariu...98/1298_3.html

07/04/2006, 08:45 AM	#15
samtheman Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 605	There have been hundreds of posts concerning Ground Probes and GFCI devices on this and other web sites. GFCI devices are known safety devices. Ground probes are not. To suggest a ground probe will save someone's life is foolhardy and unsupported by any tests or studies. By your logic a lineman would first wrap a copper wire around his leg before ascending a pole. That way if he touches a live wire he is sure to die. Do a search on this site and you will be able to read the many discussions on this topic. The only discussions supporting ground probes as a safety device are based on misguided opinions like yours. In many cases adding a probe will increase your chances of electrocution. So when telling others to install a "SAFETY" device, at least be sure it is a safety device.

07/04/2006, 08:48 AM	#16
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	Sam, I suggest you read the articles I've posted above.

07/04/2006, 11:36 AM	#19
samtheman Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 605	So am I. U of U 1964. And, you still have no evidence a ground probe is a safety device!

07/04/2006, 11:40 AM	#20
samtheman Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 605	[QUOTE]Originally posted by samtheman [B] .

07/04/2006, 11:48 AM	#21
lpkirby Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Hempstead, TX Posts: 701	ok Boys and Girls, Lets all get along. Happy 4th Everyone! :-)

07/04/2006, 11:59 AM	#22
samtheman Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 605	So you would add a ground probe to a tank witout a GFCI? Now hold your hand on your lights that have a short in them and stick your hand in the water and tell me again about safety. You might be all right if you had GFCI but without one you may be dead. How did that ground probe help again?

07/04/2006, 01:26 PM	#25
samtheman Moved On Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 605	I bring up using a ground probe without a GFCI to illustrate that the GFCI is the safety device and not the ground probe. The statement that a ground probe is a safety device is what I strongly disagree with. If it is in fact a safety device, it should increase the safety of the tank without a GFCI, but it doesn't A ground probe is NOT a safety device. As for reading a post before I respond, I did. The question I asked was not answered but avoided. Why don't you read the posts before responding? In fact, there is no documented use for a ground probe. It is a reefing myth started years ago to help lateral line disease. It was not added as a safety device. I feel giving others bad advice when it comes to safety is dangerous. Adding a grounding probe to any tank increases the danger of shock. Are you aware that GFCI's have a history of failure. That is why they come equipped with test buttons. They should be tested monthly. If one fails and you have a ground probe in place than you are in the situation that I keep bringing up.....that is a tank with a ground probe and no GFCI. So it is a valid question, because it is a situation that WILL occure.