Separate sump and fuge flow question...

20 20 · 07/24/2006, 06:42 PM

I'm setting up a 125 gallon reef, in a standard All-Glass stand. Short on the inside, if ya know what I mean. I already have a 30 gallon sump, with no fuge section. The return section has a 1" bulkhead in it for an external pump, but I'm going to be using a Mag9 as an internal pump since I've already got it. I also want to set up a fuge, so I bought a 16 gallon tank, and drilled holes for two 1" bulkheads. The plan was (WAS) to put the 16 gallon next to the sump, raised up a bit so the water could flow through the two 1" bulkheads over the top of the sump into the return section. But...

There's always a 'but', eh?

I put the 16 gallon in the stand next to the 30 gallon, raised it up high enough so the water would flow over the edge of the sump, and there is basically no room for the plumbing to the main tank (short stand, remember?), and also VERY little room for me to get into the fuge with my hand. So, that plan is out the window. I've been noodling over different options, different size fuge, placing the fuge external to the stand, etc, none of them good for me. Then I came up with an idea, and wanted to run it by 'the experts' (YOU!). Here's a diagram of what I'm thinking:

I'm thinking of leaving the 16 gallon fuge on the bottom of the stand, and running piping from the two bulkheads in the fuge to the low bulkhead in the return section of the sump, see the red in the diagram. That would leave enough room for the plumbing, and for me to get into the fuge when I need to. I know I'd have to have the flow slow enough for a 1" hole. Would this work? Would the water from the fuge flow well enough into the return section of the pump, even against the pressure of the water already in the return pump? I know water finds it's own level, but I'm just a bit concerned. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

mfinn · 07/24/2006, 08:19 PM

No, I don't think that will work.
I would think that the line going back to the sump would have to be above the water line in the sump.
Can you raise the fuge up and change the line going between the two amost straight across.
You would also have to use 2 valves.
One just above the tee ( in your diagram) and the other on the line going from the sump to the fuge.
I'm not an expert, but I have made my floors wet from time to time. lol

20 20 · 07/24/2006, 08:25 PM

Thanks for the reply! The problem is I can't raise the fuge, there is no room to do that. I didn't bother putting in any valves in the diagram above, but the plumbing, when done, will come complete with unions and ball valves galore. I could always drill a hole for a bulkhead above the water line in the return section of the sump, but the 'low' bulkhead already exists, and I'm hoping I can use it.

mfinn · 07/24/2006, 08:31 PM

I would think that the water has to free flow between the sump and fuge, with the use of gravity for it to work.
Putting the valves in those places will force just the right amount of water to go to the fuge and the rest back to the display.

20 20 · 07/25/2006, 04:45 AM

Anyone else have any opinions?

20 20 · 07/25/2006, 06:21 PM

Anyone? Save me from pullling my sump out (I have to take the tank off the top!) to drill another hole if I don't have too!

20 20 · 07/27/2006, 04:59 AM

Hehe, OK, I'll try one more time.

Anyone else with an opinion? Anyone think this will work? Anyone else think this won't work? Opinions are ALWAYS appreciated!

ChemE · 07/27/2006, 05:06 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mfinn
No, I don't think that will work.
I would think that the line going back to the sump would have to be above the water line in the sump.

Sorry but this isn't the case. As long as the water level in the fuge is higher than the water level in the return section of the sump, water will drain from the fuge to the sump (assuming that the water in the fuge is above the bulkhead).

Now, the flow rate you are able to maintain through the fuge may be somewhat less than you are hoping for since you'll only have a few inches of height difference and thus pressure forcing water back through the piping to the sump.

In short, it will work though how well is yet to be determined and it is worth a shot. Post back and let us know what flow rate you're able to maintain without overflowing the fuge.

mkarston · 07/27/2006, 06:56 AM

I think the drain from fuge to sump will work as long as the water level is higher in the fuge. Also, as another suggestion, I would split your main drain from your display tank to flow both into your sump and into your fuge. You can use ball-valves to regulate how much goes to each. This way you don't have to pump water into the fuge, and your return pump will only pump directly into the display tank.

MJAnderson · 07/27/2006, 07:11 AM

OK, no rocket scientist here, but I'm seeing 2 issues...getting the water to the fuge in your limited height and raising the fuge enough so that you have pressure for the return.

Not sure how tall all this is, but would it be possible to install the ball valve right into the pipe at the top of your sump and have it enter the fuge through a bulkhead? This would allow you to raise the fuge and still be able to get your hand in there. As for the return, now that your fuge is higher, put a bulkhead on the bottom and drain under the fuge to the spot where you have the bulkhead currently diagramed on your sump. In your fuge, attach a pipe and run it to the height you want your fuge water to be and pretend it's an overflow.

On Stockman's site he has a fuge overflow. Kinda cool.

http://home.nc.rr.com/stockmanreef/j...e_refugium.htm

I think it will work. I have a tall but narrow stand and I'm fiddling with putting a 10g tank on top of my sump and this was one idea.

mfinn · 07/27/2006, 07:17 AM

Well 20 20 looks like I've been vetoed. So give it a try. But I would place a couple valves to force a slow rate going to the fuge.

20 20 · 07/27/2006, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by ChemE
Now, the flow rate you are able to maintain through the fuge may be somewhat less than you are hoping for since you'll only have a few inches of height difference and thus pressure forcing water back through the piping to the sump.

That's my concern. How much flow will I get through the 1" bulkhead. Diagram of the water levels:

The water level in the fuge will be around 7 to 8 inches higher than the water level in the sump. Guess the only way to find out is to try it. Hate to hook it all up and have it not work. Wouldn't be the first time, though!

20 20 · 07/27/2006, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MJAnderson
Not sure how tall all this is, but would it be possible to install the ball valve right into the pipe at the top of your sump and have it enter the fuge through a bulkhead? This would allow you to raise the fuge and still be able to get your hand in there.

That would probably work, but with the limited space in the stand I can't raise the fuge. If I raise it, I won't have any room for the main tank plumbing, and I wouldn't be able to get into the fuge for cleaning, trimming cheato, etc. Even with the fuge sitting on the bottom of the stand it's going to be a tight fit.

MJAnderson · 07/27/2006, 07:56 AM

Ah. I thought your concern was the room taken up by plumbing for the fuge itself (the T and ball valve). Good luck!

20 20 · 07/29/2006, 12:08 PM

Well, I did a test. I hooked up the one 1" line as shown in the diagram, filled the fuge with water till it overflowed so about 8 inches of water was in the return section of the pump. I then stuck a MaxiJet 1200 in the return connected by a tube to the fuge, and turned it on. The 1" overflow line handled the Maxijet 1200, but barely. That's approximately 290 gph.

So, my last question is, is a flow of around 250-280 gph enough for a 16 gallon fuge in a system like mine? Do I need more flow through the fuge? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

MJAnderson · 07/29/2006, 12:46 PM

20 20,

I've read differing opinions. Some say that your fuge just needs enough flow so that the top stays scum free. Others say it needs a ton so that cheato will tumbo and grow better. I think the "standard" newbie guide is 3-5x tank volume and you are hitting the minimum.

20 20 · 07/29/2006, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MJAnderson
20 20,

I've read differing opinions. Some say that your fuge just needs enough flow so that the top stays scum free. Others say it needs a ton so that cheato will tumbo and grow better. I think the "standard" newbie guide is 3-5x tank volume and you are hitting the minimum.

Tank volume, or fuge volue? If tank volume, then 3x is 375 gph. More than the drain is able to handle, so I'd need another hole.

ChemE · 07/30/2006, 03:26 AM

I think Anthony Calfo suggests 20x the fuge volume per hour for chaeto. I think this is more than is required though. All you really need for chaeto to flourish is dirty water (not usually a problem) and a tumbling motion. I get excellent tumbling from a Whisper 60 airpump and 2 weighted airstones (the ones from a Big Bubbles). This is tumbling my chaeto better than anything else I've ever tried.

Jasen Hicks · 07/30/2006, 06:55 AM

My chateo doesn't tumble at all and it grows like mad.

jmaneyapanda · 07/30/2006, 07:09 AM

What is the purpose of your fuge? To raise microfauna, or to cultivate macroalgae for nutrient export? If it is to raise the microfauna, high flow is not necessary a concern. Howveer, if you want to cultivate macroalgae to remove excess nutrient, you'll want as much tank water going through this thing as possible.

There is an easy way around this. Put an airstone or small pump in the fuge to increase circulation and flow. This will stimulate any life you want, but it will not necessarily help you increase flow THROUGH your fuge.

And if its not too late- I would suggest plumbing a drain line from the tank to the fuge, rather than from the return pump. It will help collect debris and increase chances of nutrient utilization. Just regulate it with a valve (this branch only- obviously).

melev · 07/31/2006, 01:43 AM

The drawback to your drain system from the refugium into your return section is that the water draining from the fuge will contain air in the line, and you'll have airbubbles in the return zone. The return pump will suck these in, and you'll have microbubbles in the display.

The flow going through your refugium should be 25% of the total system. If you have your tank draining 600gph, the refugium should receive 150gph while the skimmer section 450gph. The 25% / 75% numbers are my own, based on my own experience.

If your refugium can't drain 150gph, the bulkhead is too small or the plumbing is too restrictive.

I would raise up the drain of the refugium so that it pours right at the water level, or pour it into a small submerged jar or bubble tower. This will trap the bubbles and the water can emerge out of the jar that probably would extend above the water level in that section by 1" or less. Just to pour out quietly and bubble free.

If you opt for more flow in the refugium, a powerhead will do the job easily.

20 20 · 07/31/2006, 06:16 AM

I hadn't thought about the bubbles, that's a great point. When I did the test, I didn't notice any bubbles, but I wasn't looking for them, either. The current size drain will handle the 290 gph the maxijet 1200 puts out, so that's probably enough, but I'm concernece about some blockage in the line down the road which could cause an overflow if I dont' have enough 'excess flow capacity'. I'll have to work on this design. Thanks for all the replies.

melev · 07/31/2006, 01:28 PM

If you have a strainer on the inside of the refugium, it will keep the stuff out of the drain. You do need to check on it from time to time, but it will be easy to remove and clean off.

When you do clean it, don't dally around because you might have a curious snail sneak in there while you're away. Unawares, you'll screw the strainer back on, and wonder why your refugium is overflowing once the snail wedges just so.

20 20 · 07/31/2006, 01:47 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by melev
Unawares, you'll screw the strainer back on, and wonder why your refugium is overflowing once the snail wedges just so.

Sounds like you're speaking from experiance, eh?

And yes, I'm going to have strainers on the bulkheads in the fuge. The test I did was with one drain line from the fuge to the sump, since the sump only has one hole. I 'think' I might be able to put a piece of flexible PVC, or vinyl tubing, on the other fuge bulkhead, and run it over the top of the sump, as a backup. The tubing would have to be going 'up' to get over the top edge of the sump, but it wouldn't be as high as the top edge of the fuge, so it the water would most likely flow through the tube and into the sump before it overflows the fuge. Looks like another test is in order...

melev · 07/31/2006, 02:01 PM

The water level in the refugium will be as high as the tubing. If you have to raise it up to pour it into the sump, the water will go up just as high before it can drain.

I think you said you couldn't do so, but if you have the room to slide a short stand (a few 2x4's) under the 'fuge, that would probably solve that issue cheaply. Just make sure your refugium is evenly supported by your make-shift stand.

07/24/2006, 06:42 PM	#1
20 20 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stewartstown, PA Posts: 1,246	Separate sump and fuge flow question... I'm setting up a 125 gallon reef, in a standard All-Glass stand. Short on the inside, if ya know what I mean. I already have a 30 gallon sump, with no fuge section. The return section has a 1" bulkhead in it for an external pump, but I'm going to be using a Mag9 as an internal pump since I've already got it. I also want to set up a fuge, so I bought a 16 gallon tank, and drilled holes for two 1" bulkheads. The plan was (WAS) to put the 16 gallon next to the sump, raised up a bit so the water could flow through the two 1" bulkheads over the top of the sump into the return section. But... There's always a 'but', eh? I put the 16 gallon in the stand next to the 30 gallon, raised it up high enough so the water would flow over the edge of the sump, and there is basically no room for the plumbing to the main tank (short stand, remember?), and also VERY little room for me to get into the fuge with my hand. So, that plan is out the window. I've been noodling over different options, different size fuge, placing the fuge external to the stand, etc, none of them good for me. Then I came up with an idea, and wanted to run it by 'the experts' (YOU!). Here's a diagram of what I'm thinking: I'm thinking of leaving the 16 gallon fuge on the bottom of the stand, and running piping from the two bulkheads in the fuge to the low bulkhead in the return section of the sump, see the red in the diagram. That would leave enough room for the plumbing, and for me to get into the fuge when I need to. I know I'd have to have the flow slow enough for a 1" hole. Would this work? Would the water from the fuge flow well enough into the return section of the pump, even against the pressure of the water already in the return pump? I know water finds it's own level, but I'm just a bit concerned. Any opinions would be greatly appreciated! Last edited by 20 20; 07/24/2006 at 07:41 PM.

07/24/2006, 08:19 PM	#2
mfinn Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Olympia. WA. Posts: 8,648	No, I don't think that will work. I would think that the line going back to the sump would have to be above the water line in the sump. Can you raise the fuge up and change the line going between the two amost straight across. You would also have to use 2 valves. One just above the tee ( in your diagram) and the other on the line going from the sump to the fuge. I'm not an expert, but I have made my floors wet from time to time. lol __________________ 240 gallon soft coral tank 50 gallon lps tank

07/24/2006, 08:31 PM	#4
mfinn Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Olympia. WA. Posts: 8,648	I would think that the water has to free flow between the sump and fuge, with the use of gravity for it to work. Putting the valves in those places will force just the right amount of water to go to the fuge and the rest back to the display. __________________ 240 gallon soft coral tank 50 gallon lps tank

07/27/2006, 07:17 AM	#11
mfinn Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Olympia. WA. Posts: 8,648	Well 20 20 looks like I've been vetoed. So give it a try. But I would place a couple valves to force a slow rate going to the fuge. __________________ 240 gallon soft coral tank 50 gallon lps tank

07/30/2006, 03:26 AM	#18
ChemE Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Nashville, TN Posts: 1,607	I think Anthony Calfo suggests 20x the fuge volume per hour for chaeto. I think this is more than is required though. All you really need for chaeto to flourish is dirty water (not usually a problem) and a tumbling motion. I get excellent tumbling from a Whisper 60 airpump and 2 weighted airstones (the ones from a Big Bubbles). This is tumbling my chaeto better than anything else I've ever tried. __________________ Holding it down on the engineering tip y'all Current Tank Info: 190G

07/24/2006, 08:25 PM	#3
20 20 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stewartstown, PA Posts: 1,246	Thanks for the reply! The problem is I can't raise the fuge, there is no room to do that. I didn't bother putting in any valves in the diagram above, but the plumbing, when done, will come complete with unions and ball valves galore. I could always drill a hole for a bulkhead above the water line in the return section of the sump, but the 'low' bulkhead already exists, and I'm hoping I can use it.

07/25/2006, 04:45 AM	#5
20 20 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stewartstown, PA Posts: 1,246	Anyone else have any opinions?

07/25/2006, 06:21 PM	#6
20 20 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stewartstown, PA Posts: 1,246	Anyone? Save me from pullling my sump out (I have to take the tank off the top!) to drill another hole if I don't have too!

07/27/2006, 04:59 AM	#7
20 20 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stewartstown, PA Posts: 1,246	Hehe, OK, I'll try one more time. Anyone else with an opinion? Anyone think this will work? Anyone else think this won't work? Opinions are ALWAYS appreciated!

07/27/2006, 06:56 AM	#9
mkarston Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Cary, NC Posts: 449	I think the drain from fuge to sump will work as long as the water level is higher in the fuge. Also, as another suggestion, I would split your main drain from your display tank to flow both into your sump and into your fuge. You can use ball-valves to regulate how much goes to each. This way you don't have to pump water into the fuge, and your return pump will only pump directly into the display tank.

07/27/2006, 07:11 AM	#10
MJAnderson Premium Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: East Bay, CA Posts: 2,633	OK, no rocket scientist here, but I'm seeing 2 issues...getting the water to the fuge in your limited height and raising the fuge enough so that you have pressure for the return. Not sure how tall all this is, but would it be possible to install the ball valve right into the pipe at the top of your sump and have it enter the fuge through a bulkhead? This would allow you to raise the fuge and still be able to get your hand in there. As for the return, now that your fuge is higher, put a bulkhead on the bottom and drain under the fuge to the spot where you have the bulkhead currently diagramed on your sump. In your fuge, attach a pipe and run it to the height you want your fuge water to be and pretend it's an overflow. On Stockman's site he has a fuge overflow. Kinda cool. http://home.nc.rr.com/stockmanreef/j...e_refugium.htm I think it will work. I have a tall but narrow stand and I'm fiddling with putting a 10g tank on top of my sump and this was one idea.

07/27/2006, 07:56 AM	#14
MJAnderson Premium Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: East Bay, CA Posts: 2,633	Ah. I thought your concern was the room taken up by plumbing for the fuge itself (the T and ball valve). Good luck!

07/29/2006, 12:08 PM	#15
20 20 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stewartstown, PA Posts: 1,246	Well, I did a test. I hooked up the one 1" line as shown in the diagram, filled the fuge with water till it overflowed so about 8 inches of water was in the return section of the pump. I then stuck a MaxiJet 1200 in the return connected by a tube to the fuge, and turned it on. The 1" overflow line handled the Maxijet 1200, but barely. That's approximately 290 gph. So, my last question is, is a flow of around 250-280 gph enough for a 16 gallon fuge in a system like mine? Do I need more flow through the fuge? Any opinions would be greatly appreciated!

07/29/2006, 12:46 PM	#16
MJAnderson Premium Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: East Bay, CA Posts: 2,633	20 20, I've read differing opinions. Some say that your fuge just needs enough flow so that the top stays scum free. Others say it needs a ton so that cheato will tumbo and grow better. I think the "standard" newbie guide is 3-5x tank volume and you are hitting the minimum.

07/30/2006, 06:55 AM	#19
Jasen Hicks Premium Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yokosuka, Japan Posts: 240	My chateo doesn't tumble at all and it grows like mad. __________________ Jasen Hicks I work and live in Japan. Thanks Navy! "Girls only want boyfreinds with great skills!" http://www.JasensCustoms.com Current Tank Info: 10G Office Reef

07/30/2006, 07:09 AM	#20
jmaneyapanda Commencing hatred Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 3,784	What is the purpose of your fuge? To raise microfauna, or to cultivate macroalgae for nutrient export? If it is to raise the microfauna, high flow is not necessary a concern. Howveer, if you want to cultivate macroalgae to remove excess nutrient, you'll want as much tank water going through this thing as possible. There is an easy way around this. Put an airstone or small pump in the fuge to increase circulation and flow. This will stimulate any life you want, but it will not necessarily help you increase flow THROUGH your fuge. And if its not too late- I would suggest plumbing a drain line from the tank to the fuge, rather than from the return pump. It will help collect debris and increase chances of nutrient utilization. Just regulate it with a valve (this branch only- obviously).

07/31/2006, 01:43 AM	#21
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	The drawback to your drain system from the refugium into your return section is that the water draining from the fuge will contain air in the line, and you'll have airbubbles in the return zone. The return pump will suck these in, and you'll have microbubbles in the display. The flow going through your refugium should be 25% of the total system. If you have your tank draining 600gph, the refugium should receive 150gph while the skimmer section 450gph. The 25% / 75% numbers are my own, based on my own experience. If your refugium can't drain 150gph, the bulkhead is too small or the plumbing is too restrictive. I would raise up the drain of the refugium so that it pours right at the water level, or pour it into a small submerged jar or bubble tower. This will trap the bubbles and the water can emerge out of the jar that probably would extend above the water level in that section by 1" or less. Just to pour out quietly and bubble free. If you opt for more flow in the refugium, a powerhead will do the job easily.

07/31/2006, 06:16 AM	#22
20 20 Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Stewartstown, PA Posts: 1,246	I hadn't thought about the bubbles, that's a great point. When I did the test, I didn't notice any bubbles, but I wasn't looking for them, either. The current size drain will handle the 290 gph the maxijet 1200 puts out, so that's probably enough, but I'm concernece about some blockage in the line down the road which could cause an overflow if I dont' have enough 'excess flow capacity'. I'll have to work on this design. Thanks for all the replies.

07/31/2006, 01:28 PM	#23
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	If you have a strainer on the inside of the refugium, it will keep the stuff out of the drain. You do need to check on it from time to time, but it will be easy to remove and clean off. When you do clean it, don't dally around because you might have a curious snail sneak in there while you're away. Unawares, you'll screw the strainer back on, and wonder why your refugium is overflowing once the snail wedges just so.

07/31/2006, 02:01 PM	#25
melev Moved On Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Ft Worth, Tx Posts: 43,217	The water level in the refugium will be as high as the tubing. If you have to raise it up to pour it into the sump, the water will go up just as high before it can drain. I think you said you couldn't do so, but if you have the room to slide a short stand (a few 2x4's) under the 'fuge, that would probably solve that issue cheaply. Just make sure your refugium is evenly supported by your make-shift stand.