External Pumps - Which would you recommend as effecient/cost effective?

leoskee · 07/27/2006, 08:22 PM

Im going to jump from a 75gl to at least a 120gl but more than likely a 180gl. I currently run a Mag 12 on my tank with dual external overflows. I have a Gen X Mak 4 that I will set up for the Bullet 2 skimmer on the new tank (since it is the recommended pump by the manufacturer).

What other external pump would be good for the size tanks that I might go with?

ChemE · 07/27/2006, 09:14 PM

Are you convinced that you need to get 3-5 turnovers per hour through your sump/skimmer loop or do you subscribe to the low flow sump?

I personally only use my return pump to keep the surface of my display clear of surface active proteins so that gas exchange can occur unimpeded. I get another 30 turnovers in my display with Maxi-Streams to keep detritus from settling out.

I'd say most people here on RC prefer to get 5+ turnovers with their return pump and the balance with CL or PH's. I personally view this as wasteful but at the end of the day you need to do what seems reasonable to you.

Let us know your preference and we can try to make a sound recommendation to accommodate it.

leoskee · 07/28/2006, 05:45 AM

Until recently I thought that the higher the flow of water entering and exiting the tank was best. This is why I have used a Mag 12 on a 75gl tank. Im getting about 900-950gph cycled through the tank. Inside of the tank I have two seio 820's on each side an a seio 1500 in the middle.

I know a guy who uses an eheim pump on his tank that is only rated for 300 gph. He has a ton of ph's in his tank though.

To get to the point, I want to do something that is cost effective (which might mean a lower gph intering/exiting the tank) and effecient.

I just bought a new house and I am afraid of the electric bills I will have to pay. Ive heard some horror stories.

Why do you think that CL and PH's are wasteful?

ChemE · 07/28/2006, 07:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leoskee
...Why do you think that CL and PH's are wasteful?

I don't. What I personally view as wasteful is using a return pump large enough to turn the tank over 3-5 or more times per hour. I am able to keep my display clear with 1.5 turnovers per hour so I tried to find a pump capable of this an no more so as to minimize energy consumption. It turns out that a MaxiJet 1200 at 4' of static head delivers 86 gph and consumes a scant 13 watts or 9.5 kWh/month.

A Danner Mag Drive 1200 is rated to draw 110 watts max. Your actual power draw is a function of static head so I don't know what it is actually pulling but 110 watts running 24/7 is 80.36 kWh/month.

The most efficient way I have found to get the rest of my circulation in the display is via a Maxi-Stream. My Maxi-Stream 600 is all the flow my tank can handle and it only draws 6 watts (I bought a Kill A Watt to take all my measurements with). I'm getting somewhere in the neighborhood of 1500 gph for 6 watts. That is awfully hard to beat and this even beats the pants off a Tunze 6060 which takes 11 watts to move 1500 gph.

leoskee · 07/28/2006, 07:46 AM

Okay. I misunderstood what you posted. So you view a high turn over return pump as wasteful. I can see how your numbers work out on a 55. But for a tank 3x - 4x the size of your's, how do you minimize wattage consumption.

Do you know of a site that give the watt consumption of pumps and ph's?

ChemE · 07/28/2006, 07:58 AM

Funny you should ask since I'm in the process of setting up a 190. I'm afraid that the requirement of 180-270 gph at 4' of static head is a difficult range to accommodate efficiently. Our best bet is the Blueline NS-800 which draws 40 watts max (I have never seen a power curve for this pump and Blueline never returns me emails) and delivers about 700 gph at 4' of head. Now 700 gph is way more than we need but other pumps which deliver less water actually draw more power. The Eheim 1250 is a truly excellent return pump for 120 gallon and smaller tanks since it only draws 28 watts but thte 1260 jumps up to 65 watts.

mfinn · 07/28/2006, 08:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leoskee
Im going to jump from a 75gl to at least a 120gl but more than likely a 180gl. I currently run a Mag 12 on my tank with dual external overflows. I have a Gen X Mak 4 that I will set up for the Bullet 2 skimmer on the new tank (since it is the recommended pump by the manufacturer).

What other external pump would be good for the size tanks that I might go with?

I like the Pan World pumps.
I also use a Poseidon P-4 on my 180 and I love it. Completely silent.

ChemE · 07/28/2006, 08:14 AM

The Poseidon P-4 moves 1225 gph @ 3' of static head and draws 140 watts. This is pretty much the opposite of what I'm recommending.

mfinn · 07/28/2006, 08:20 AM

Well I happen to like the high flow tank and sump.
The process has worked well for me for about 15 years.
There may be benefits to your ideas, but leoskee asked for pump recommendations and I gave mine..

ChemE · 07/28/2006, 08:25 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by leoskee
To get to the point, I want to do something that is cost effective (which might mean a lower gph intering/exiting the tank) and effecient.

I just bought a new house and I am afraid of the electric bills I will have to pay. Ive heard some horror stories.

Yes but leoskee was inquiring about efficient pumps (see above). I have never heard a bad thing about Poseidon pumps and don't doubt that it is working well for you but it is in no way shape or form efficient.

RGibson · 07/28/2006, 08:35 AM

ChemE i have installed a Iwaki MD-15RT pump 32 watts 240 gph at 4 ft head for the return pump on my 180 gal reef so far it is working ok. I have many sizes of Iwaki -Eheim pumps to work with to lower the watts and get good flow.

ChemE · 07/28/2006, 08:46 AM

Interesting. I've never really paid much attention to Iwaki's before but clearly I should. Thanks for the tip RGibson.

leoskee · 07/28/2006, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RGibson
I have many sizes of Iwaki -Eheim pumps to work with to lower the watts and get good flow.

What do you mean by that? Do you mean you have tried out several or that you have several running your tank?

And yes I am asking for suggestions on pumps but the key factor here is going to be energy consumption.

When I started out in this hobby I thought that the more water you can get to flow out of your tank and into a filtration area the better water quality you would have. Over time I have realize that that is not always true.

gil716 · 07/28/2006, 10:29 AM

Hey Leo, here's a page with pump info. Not comprehensive, but it's a start.

http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/

When I was doing research on this, the Red Dragons were the most efficient. Of course, you would have to sacrifice an arm for one. And probably not one with MH burn marks on it.

leoskee · 07/28/2006, 10:33 AM

Thanks for the info. I was trying to find that webpage. I saw it a few months back but didnt know where it was.

Hey! Why are you making fun of my burned hand. Its supposed to be a secret.

RGibson · 07/28/2006, 10:42 AM

I have tried out many Iwaki and Eheim pumps.
Iwaki MD55RLT used on a beckett skimmer.only one beckett is used on the skimmer .Have done much work on the beckett skimmers but i will not put any larger pump then the MD55RLT, to save watts.
Return pump Iwaki MD15
Tunze streams 2 -6100 multicontroller 7095
All of this done to save watts and to get the best water flow for the reef tank,i have change pumps many times to get this far.

RGibson · 07/28/2006, 11:39 AM

It is my hope that the many people who have done work on there reef tanks to cut the amount of watts to run them will come forward and tell all of us how thay have done it,even small things can help make a difference.

leoskee · 07/28/2006, 12:14 PM

Thanks for clarifying. Your right. This is something that we should start looking into deeper. Yes, we want to have beautiful tanks, large corals and thriving fish. But if there is a way out there to cut back on costs we should be sharing that information.

I am going to give this a little more thought.

By the way, anyone using a PM Bullet 2 skimmer with a pump other than a Gen X Mak 4? What type of results have/are getting?

ChemE · 07/28/2006, 12:22 PM

Heh, where do I begin? These wattage draws are as measured by my Kill A Watt not what the tag says so they are real.

James11 · 07/28/2006, 12:41 PM

What kind of return pump should I use on a 29 gallon tank? I'm gonna keep some SPS and other corals. I also would like to have some what of a closed loop, but I wanna tee off the return and add some returns so I don't have that many PH in my display tank. What do you all think?

gcarroll · 07/28/2006, 12:49 PM

I have never bought into the low flow though the sump. To each his own. There seem to be more benefits to higher turnover (>3x)systems than those extermely low turnover (<3x) systems. To me, if your skimmer can process more water per hour than is going through your sump, it just seems to me that you are hampering the efficiency of the skimmer.

twon8 · 07/28/2006, 01:05 PM

IMO having the dirtiest, surface skimmed water rushing through your sump will hamper the effectiveness of a skimmer. by having a low flow return (150gph in a 90) my skimmer continues to clean the dirtiest water in my tank. I could show you the increased skimming I got as a result, now that my skimmer is being fed directlty by that. (rec asmg3)

gcarroll · 07/28/2006, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by twon8
IMO having the dirtiest, surface skimmed water rushing through your sump will hamper the effectiveness of a skimmer. by having a low flow return (150gph in a 90) my skimmer continues to clean the dirtiest water in my tank. I could show you the increased skimming I got as a result, now that my skimmer is being fed directlty by that. (rec asmg3)

No need to show me pics. I completely understand why that setup would work best for you. Unfortunately My recommendation is based on the equipment that leoskee has. different equipment required different tactics to make it perform at optimum levels.

leoskee · 07/28/2006, 02:51 PM

I never really thought about that. If you slow down the flow you get more protein based dissolved organic matter directed towards what ever overflow you have. Hence, the water being fed into a skimmer will have more nutrients that can be exported through the skimming process.

I understand that my equipment requires a higher flow. I wonder if I can set it up in a closed loop of sort so that the amount of water being drawn into the skimmer can be equalized with a minimal amount of water being returned by the return pump.

Does that make sense?

gcarroll · 07/28/2006, 03:07 PM

My skimmer is in sump. The pump takes only the raw water before the sump's baffles. The skimmer's output is after. The flow into the tank and the flow going into the skimmer are very close. If you have an injection style skimmer there is no advantage to reskimming the same water over and over while your tank is holding onto the nutrient rich water waiting for it to be skimmed an hour or two later when it eventually makes it's way down to the sump. Just my opinion though!

07/27/2006, 08:22 PM	#1
leoskee Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 371	External Pumps - Which would you recommend as effecient/cost effective? Im going to jump from a 75gl to at least a 120gl but more than likely a 180gl. I currently run a Mag 12 on my tank with dual external overflows. I have a Gen X Mak 4 that I will set up for the Bullet 2 skimmer on the new tank (since it is the recommended pump by the manufacturer). What other external pump would be good for the size tanks that I might go with? __________________ ~Little Fish in a Big Pond~

07/27/2006, 09:14 PM	#2
ChemE Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Nashville, TN Posts: 1,607	Are you convinced that you need to get 3-5 turnovers per hour through your sump/skimmer loop or do you subscribe to the low flow sump? I personally only use my return pump to keep the surface of my display clear of surface active proteins so that gas exchange can occur unimpeded. I get another 30 turnovers in my display with Maxi-Streams to keep detritus from settling out. I'd say most people here on RC prefer to get 5+ turnovers with their return pump and the balance with CL or PH's. I personally view this as wasteful but at the end of the day you need to do what seems reasonable to you. Let us know your preference and we can try to make a sound recommendation to accommodate it. __________________ Holding it down on the engineering tip y'all Current Tank Info: 190G

07/28/2006, 05:45 AM	#3
leoskee Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 371	Until recently I thought that the higher the flow of water entering and exiting the tank was best. This is why I have used a Mag 12 on a 75gl tank. Im getting about 900-950gph cycled through the tank. Inside of the tank I have two seio 820's on each side an a seio 1500 in the middle. I know a guy who uses an eheim pump on his tank that is only rated for 300 gph. He has a ton of ph's in his tank though. To get to the point, I want to do something that is cost effective (which might mean a lower gph intering/exiting the tank) and effecient. I just bought a new house and I am afraid of the electric bills I will have to pay. Ive heard some horror stories. Why do you think that CL and PH's are wasteful? __________________ ~Little Fish in a Big Pond~

07/28/2006, 07:46 AM	#5
leoskee Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 371	Okay. I misunderstood what you posted. So you view a high turn over return pump as wasteful. I can see how your numbers work out on a 55. But for a tank 3x - 4x the size of your's, how do you minimize wattage consumption. Do you know of a site that give the watt consumption of pumps and ph's? __________________ ~Little Fish in a Big Pond~

07/28/2006, 07:58 AM	#6
ChemE Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Nashville, TN Posts: 1,607	Funny you should ask since I'm in the process of setting up a 190. I'm afraid that the requirement of 180-270 gph at 4' of static head is a difficult range to accommodate efficiently. Our best bet is the Blueline NS-800 which draws 40 watts max (I have never seen a power curve for this pump and Blueline never returns me emails) and delivers about 700 gph at 4' of head. Now 700 gph is way more than we need but other pumps which deliver less water actually draw more power. The Eheim 1250 is a truly excellent return pump for 120 gallon and smaller tanks since it only draws 28 watts but thte 1260 jumps up to 65 watts. __________________ Holding it down on the engineering tip y'all Current Tank Info: 190G

07/28/2006, 08:14 AM	#8
ChemE Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Nashville, TN Posts: 1,607	The Poseidon P-4 moves 1225 gph @ 3' of static head and draws 140 watts. This is pretty much the opposite of what I'm recommending. __________________ Holding it down on the engineering tip y'all Current Tank Info: 190G

07/28/2006, 08:20 AM	#9
mfinn Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Olympia. WA. Posts: 8,648	Well I happen to like the high flow tank and sump. The process has worked well for me for about 15 years. There may be benefits to your ideas, but leoskee asked for pump recommendations and I gave mine.. __________________ 240 gallon soft coral tank 50 gallon lps tank

07/28/2006, 08:35 AM	#11
RGibson RGibson Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,377	ChemE i have installed a Iwaki MD-15RT pump 32 watts 240 gph at 4 ft head for the return pump on my 180 gal reef so far it is working ok. I have many sizes of Iwaki -Eheim pumps to work with to lower the watts and get good flow. __________________ RGibson

07/28/2006, 08:46 AM	#12
ChemE Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Nashville, TN Posts: 1,607	Interesting. I've never really paid much attention to Iwaki's before but clearly I should. Thanks for the tip RGibson. __________________ Holding it down on the engineering tip y'all Current Tank Info: 190G

07/28/2006, 10:29 AM	#14
gil716 Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: North Jersey, NJ Posts: 290	Hey Leo, here's a page with pump info. Not comprehensive, but it's a start. http://www.reefs.org/library/pumps/ When I was doing research on this, the Red Dragons were the most efficient. Of course, you would have to sacrifice an arm for one. And probably not one with MH burn marks on it.

07/28/2006, 10:33 AM	#15
leoskee Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 371	Thanks for the info. I was trying to find that webpage. I saw it a few months back but didnt know where it was. Hey! Why are you making fun of my burned hand. Its supposed to be a secret. __________________ ~Little Fish in a Big Pond~

07/28/2006, 10:42 AM	#16
RGibson RGibson Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,377	I have tried out many Iwaki and Eheim pumps. Iwaki MD55RLT used on a beckett skimmer.only one beckett is used on the skimmer .Have done much work on the beckett skimmers but i will not put any larger pump then the MD55RLT, to save watts. Return pump Iwaki MD15 Tunze streams 2 -6100 multicontroller 7095 All of this done to save watts and to get the best water flow for the reef tank,i have change pumps many times to get this far. __________________ RGibson

07/28/2006, 11:39 AM	#17
RGibson RGibson Join Date: Nov 2002 Posts: 2,377	It is my hope that the many people who have done work on there reef tanks to cut the amount of watts to run them will come forward and tell all of us how thay have done it,even small things can help make a difference. __________________ RGibson

07/28/2006, 12:14 PM	#18
leoskee Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 371	Thanks for clarifying. Your right. This is something that we should start looking into deeper. Yes, we want to have beautiful tanks, large corals and thriving fish. But if there is a way out there to cut back on costs we should be sharing that information. I am going to give this a little more thought. By the way, anyone using a PM Bullet 2 skimmer with a pump other than a Gen X Mak 4? What type of results have/are getting? __________________ ~Little Fish in a Big Pond~

07/28/2006, 12:22 PM	#19
ChemE Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: East Nashville, TN Posts: 1,607	Heh, where do I begin? These wattage draws are as measured by my Kill A Watt not what the tag says so they are real. __________________ Holding it down on the engineering tip y'all Current Tank Info: 190G

07/28/2006, 12:41 PM	#20
James11 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: KY Posts: 544	What kind of return pump should I use on a 29 gallon tank? I'm gonna keep some SPS and other corals. I also would like to have some what of a closed loop, but I wanna tee off the return and add some returns so I don't have that many PH in my display tank. What do you all think?

07/28/2006, 12:49 PM	#21
gcarroll Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Orange, CA Posts: 9,666	I have never bought into the low flow though the sump. To each his own. There seem to be more benefits to higher turnover (>3x)systems than those extermely low turnover (<3x) systems. To me, if your skimmer can process more water per hour than is going through your sump, it just seems to me that you are hampering the efficiency of the skimmer. __________________ Greg Carroll I will be at REEF-A-PALOOZA! SPS = Stability Promotes Success Be wary of advice coming from those who will not show you the fruits of their success! Current Tank Info: building: 250g AGE Euro tank, Abyzz A200, Vertex Supra-G filtration, Ecotech Radion Pro LEDs, ...

07/28/2006, 01:05 PM	#22
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	IMO having the dirtiest, surface skimmed water rushing through your sump will hamper the effectiveness of a skimmer. by having a low flow return (150gph in a 90) my skimmer continues to clean the dirtiest water in my tank. I could show you the increased skimming I got as a result, now that my skimmer is being fed directlty by that. (rec asmg3) __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

07/28/2006, 02:51 PM	#24
leoskee Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NJ/NY Posts: 371	I never really thought about that. If you slow down the flow you get more protein based dissolved organic matter directed towards what ever overflow you have. Hence, the water being fed into a skimmer will have more nutrients that can be exported through the skimming process. I understand that my equipment requires a higher flow. I wonder if I can set it up in a closed loop of sort so that the amount of water being drawn into the skimmer can be equalized with a minimal amount of water being returned by the return pump. Does that make sense? __________________ ~Little Fish in a Big Pond~

07/28/2006, 03:07 PM	#25
gcarroll Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Orange, CA Posts: 9,666	My skimmer is in sump. The pump takes only the raw water before the sump's baffles. The skimmer's output is after. The flow into the tank and the flow going into the skimmer are very close. If you have an injection style skimmer there is no advantage to reskimming the same water over and over while your tank is holding onto the nutrient rich water waiting for it to be skimmed an hour or two later when it eventually makes it's way down to the sump. Just my opinion though! __________________ Greg Carroll I will be at REEF-A-PALOOZA! SPS = Stability Promotes Success Be wary of advice coming from those who will not show you the fruits of their success! Current Tank Info: building: 250g AGE Euro tank, Abyzz A200, Vertex Supra-G filtration, Ecotech Radion Pro LEDs, ...