WHY did everyoen switch BACK to MOGUL vs, HQI

[ikn0xl]

I ask because the Single ended Hamilton fixture 2x400w 48" costs more than the same thing in HQI, why is that and why do I hear that HQI is stronger but others say that MOGUL is brighter..?


ANy opinions or experiences..?

[Aseidman]

i just bought a MH retrofit from hellolights and they insisted that HQI is brighter....

[lastin1]

HQI is only brighter because it's overdriven and/or measured without the required UV shield. Why would you want to use the same piece of glass that will build up with stains and such when you can get a "new" shield each time you replace the bulb?

[Gary Majchrzak]

Originally posted by ikn0xl
I ask because the Single ended Hamilton fixture 2x400w 48" costs more than the same thing in HQI, why is that and why do I hear that HQI is stronger but others say that MOGUL is brighter..?


ANy opinions or experiences..?

I never switched from the SE to the DE format.
A big beef with the DE format is the limited number of lamps available- especially when it comes to kelvin ratings. There are many more choices of SE lamps than DE.

[tripstank]

Originally posted by lastin1
HQI is only brighter because it's overdriven and/or measured without the required UV shield. Why would you want to use the same piece of glass that will build up with stains and such when you can get a "new" shield each time you replace the bulb?

Who buys a new shield? I soke mine in vinegar/water and throw them back into the pendants! Buy a new shield! Forget that!

There are very few bulbs that can be "overdriven" and they require the propper ballast to do so.

Moguls seem easier to deal with and are less testy than HQIs. I run HQIs myself and don't have any problems with them.

I can't wait to see what an expert has to say on the subject.

[McCrary]

I just always liked SE bulbs more and they seemed easier to use in a retrofit.

[Fliger]

People always do this - HQI is not DE. DE is a bulb type. HQI is a ballast type. You can run mogul socket bulbs on HQI ballasts. And you can run DE bulbs on non-HQI ballasts. I think I'm going to put this in my tagline since it leads to so much confusion.

DE isn't brighter per se, it just takes X amount of energy and focuses it. Mogul socket bulbs take the same X and spreads it out more evenly. It just depends on your needs. Clkwrk has 5 or 6 DE's over his 180 and that's about the only way you get no dark spots with DE. You could cover the tank with 3 moguls and have no dead spots, but it would not be as intense. Its still putting 750W in your tank vs 1,250 that he puts in. All things equal, DE is no "brighter" than mogul - just more focused. You could put an HQI ballast on a mogul socket bulb, and an electronic ballast on the same bulb in a DE format and overall - the mogul would put more light/energy into your tank.

[BeanAnimal]

Focus is a pure function of the reflector and the distance of the bulb from the reflector. DE bulbs can get closer to the reflector that SE bulbs. To date the DE reflectors (in most cases) are better then the SE reflectors.

[Fliger]

I agree with Bean. See Bean, I believe a watt is a watt in lighting - just not in chilling. Just kidding.

What I don't agree with tho is DE reflectors are better than SE reflectors. You have to define "better". What's better is what suits an individual reefer's application. DE's were made popular in Europe where space is a premium and tanks are typically 18-20" wide.

Having said that - I have DE reflectors on a 32" wide tank. Only reason is that I needed one pendant (wife mandate), and I wanted at least 4xT5 built in. There are only two pendant manufacturers that made it, Arcadia won't make fixture for the US and Grotech (Photon Linea) reflectors were "unimpressive" in mogul. I had to juice my T5's otherwise this pendant would be worthless on my tank.

[RichConley]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
Focus is a pure function of the reflector and the distance of the bulb from the reflector. DE bulbs can get closer to the reflector that SE bulbs. To date the DE reflectors (in most cases) are better then the SE reflectors.

Bean, according to Sanjays tests, in almost every same ballast combination, the SE version of a bulb has a higher par than the DE version. The big difference is that SE bulbs dont need to be shielded, whereas DE bulbs do, and they tend to lose about 20% of their efficiency.


FWIW, the lumenarc A3 are better than any DE reflector I've ever seen.

(I own 2x 250 DEs, 1 in a Geismann pendant, 1 in a ROIII)

[BeanAnimal]

I never said a word about PAR... I was just clarifying the reflector issue. Also I said IN MOST CASES. Lets not nit pick this

Yes the Luminarc reflectors are good, and now available as DE units also. It should be noted that those reflectors are better over a large footprint where the RO series are better over a small footprint.

In the end, the reflector is a big part, but has to be chosen to match not only the bulb, but the desired coverage footprint. This may or may not dictate the use of a DE or SE bulb and reflector combination to get the desired results.

[BeanAnimal]

Fliger, I was refering to the fact until as of late, most SE reflectors were of poor engineering with regards to focus and optimization for the desired footprint with the least amount of internal reflections or spilled light. The DE reflectors seem to be somewhat ahead of the game (in most cases). Very similar to the maturity of the T5 reflectors as compared to the CF, T8 and T12 units (even though the bulbs have been around for ages).

The reasoning is threefold (at least)... 1) because the bulbs are narrower and can be placed closer to the reflector and eliminate more of their own shadow. This reduces multiple reflectance to get the same amount of light into the focus area. 2) the newer bulbs seem to get more design engineering due to their popularity (or the hope that they will become popular). 3) because industry has adopted the bulbs in this new age of efficiency with regards to lighting. What industry does trickles down to the hobby. Industry has largely abandoned T12, CF, and MOGUL bulbs in favort of T8, T5, and DE arc bulbs.

[tripstank]

Go Bean Go!

[moonpod]

as a generality if you have a tank that can be broken down into 2x2 surface area sections, a 250w DE will serve you well. It focuses the light very well in that area. The downside is that the light IS very well focused. Hence people complain about "apparent" dimness and shadows (not as much light is bouncing towards your eyes so you perceive less and shadowing is a function of the lack of spread as well).

If your tank doesn't break down so nicely, or if you want more spread out of your fixtures and you worry about peak levels less then SE will work better for you. In particular hooked up to reflectors like the Lumenarc/Lumenmax series. However, you will usually end up with lower peak light levels.

Also remember most SE bulbs while they CAN be driven by HQI ballasts, don't last long on them whereas most DE bulbs take it in stride.

As for shielding, get a low iron glass shield (yes it does cost more) and you will do much better than with the stock cheap glass shields that are used in most fixtures as UV shields.

[lastin1]

Originally posted by tripstank
Who buys a new shield? I soke mine in vinegar/water and throw them back into the pendants! Buy a new shield! Forget that!

There are very few bulbs that can be "overdriven" and they require the propper ballast to do so.

Moguls seem easier to deal with and are less testy than HQIs. I run HQIs myself and don't have any problems with them.

I can't wait to see what an expert has to say on the subject.

What I'm trying to say is that with an SE bulb, it's like getting a new UV shield each time you change the bulb. Cleaning hard water stain is a hassle, and it's never as clean as a new bulb. I have stubborn hard water stains that doesn't even come off with muriatic acid.

[tripstank]

I haven't had it that bad yet, I try to clean mine every week after I am done doing water changes, because I have bin known to splash a bit when I am cleaning the tank or moving frags.

[vanmle]

For me, I switched from SE to DE because of Lumenarcs. It is a great reflector and I can get away with 2 x 250W SE with Lumenarcs on a 7' tank. I have acros and clams in the middle at the bottom of the 20" tank. I would definitely require more than 2 DEs to cover my tank. I have another third set of ballast and bulbs but never needed it.

[bergzy]

the major reason i use de bulbs is...aesthetics.

i required the smallest pendant possible for my 180g as it is in a very viewable part of the house. my tank is not inwall and i do not like the huge tall canopies that i often see with se bulbs. even if the lumenarcs for se were made into a pendant...the vertical profile is still way too thick for my taste.

3x250w de's do a pretty decent job at lighting up the tank...

[benf]

Moonpod, in what way is the low iron glass better? and where do get that?

thanks

[BeanAnimal]

What I'm trying to say is that with an SE bulb, it's like getting a new UV shield each time you change the bulb. Cleaning hard water stain is a hassle, and it's never as clean as a new bulb. I have stubborn hard water stains that doesn't even come off with muriatic acid.

That is 100% NONSENSE! (sorry to be so blunt, but honestly...)

You should clean your "uv shield" or bulb envelope on a regular basis, long before it develops hard water stains.

Secondly, because the DE bulbs require a UV shield, you can get them closer to the water than a SE bulb without fear of breakage. You may also want to note that the uv shield glass gets nowhere near as hot as the envelope on a SE bulb. Less heat means less calcification or hardening of dried water deposits and salt.

[BeanAnimal]

Originally posted by vanmle
For me, I switched from SE to DE because of Lumenarcs. It is a great reflector and I can get away with 2 x 250W SE with Lumenarcs on a 7' tank. I have acros and clams in the middle at the bottom of the 20" tank. I would definitely require more than 2 DEs to cover my tank. I have another third set of ballast and bulbs but never needed it.

You have this somewhat backwards.... you may be getting better overall coverage, but the DE bulbs and reflectors on the market would get you more focused, deeper pentration

So yes you are covering a wide area, but with less overall light at depth. You are correct in the fact that more focused reflectors would not cover the same square footage and may dictate the need for a 3rd unit. That is if you want that extra intensity over the whole area.

[BeanAnimal]

Low iron glass transmits more light due to it's lower iron content (less particles to refract the light).

[benf]

thanks BeanAnimal...any idea if HD would carry something like that or do i need to hit a glass shop?

[RichConley]

Originally posted by BeanAnimal
You have this somewhat backwards.... you may be getting better overall coverage, but the DE bulbs and reflectors on the market would get you more focused, deeper pentration

So yes you are covering a wide area, but with less overall light at depth. You are correct in the fact that more focused reflectors would not cover the same square footage and may dictate the need for a 3rd unit. That is if you want that extra intensity over the whole area.

Right Bean, I agree, but I believe that the greater penetration is totally un-needed. IMO, 250 DEs are TOO intense in my 24" deep tank. I burn out everythign from stylos, to some acros at 18" deep underneath them.

So while the DE may give greater Peak intensity, the peak intensity of the SE is in most cases more than enough to grow pretty much anything, plus you get a much larger peak area.

[Fliger]

I agree Rich, but you wouldn't burn it with 20K DE with e-ballasts. Which is why when it comes to comparing moguls to DE, you can never use generalities. There are probably some mogul socket/HQI combos that would be too bright as well.