water quality proble..please help

scarpenter · 08/06/2006, 05:18 PM

We have a small 20 gallon salt water tank. We have had it up for about 6 weeks. It finally finished cycling about two weeks with 3 damsels. All seemed well. We have almost finished our 110 tank and expect to have it up midweek. SO I happened to be at our LFS getting stuff for our cichlid tank.......I bought a couple of new fish. Anyway within hours of adding the fish the water started looking cloudy. I assumed it was a mini-cycle and started watching the tank. The nitrites went through the roof in less than 2 hours and the water started looking like milk. We did a 50% water change and then again 2 hours later when it spiked again. What seemes like forever the nitrites started dropping to zero as did the nitrates. The fish actually started looking worse. So......I quickly found an old mixing bowl and made a make-shift tank out of it. All seemed well. Now 36 hours later according to all my tests.....nitrates are at 0, nitrites are at 0, ammonia is at 0 and everything else also appears ideal. The problem....the water is still cloudy. Since all reading were well and the water was starting to look better I decided to put some of the fish back in......in less than a minute I lost a couple of damsels, a starfish, and a snail. I am out of instant ocean from changing so much water. And of course our LFS are not open on Sunday so i am pretty much SOL until the morning. I would like some input if anyone has it as to what in the world is going on.....

bertoni · 08/06/2006, 05:59 PM

How many fish are in the tank? The cloudiness could be a bacterial bloom. If the tank already (or still) has three damsels, I'd say it's full up.

How much circulation does the tank have?

graveyardworm · 08/06/2006, 06:04 PM

Sounds kinda odd, I generally use a QT for all my new additions. This has no LR or sand and contains only water, and I've never had it turn milky. Did you immediatly start feeding the fish, and if so how much?

Is there any chance that the cycle wasnt finished? Also what is your SG and how are you measuring it?

scarpenter · 08/06/2006, 08:14 PM

The specific gravity is between 1.21 and 1.23 using a hygrometer. I did not use the quarantine tank. As for the damsels....they were VERY tiny...measuring less than an inch. The water circulation was great as I was using a pump for up to 75 gallons and a powerhead up to 90 on a small 20 gallon. I am certain it had cycled before. If it were cycling shouldn't it be clearing up and the fish not dying. They lived through the hardest part of the cycle when the nitrites and nitrates were high. Then when condition started returning to normal they immediately died.

The thing that stumps me the most is that all readings are good. The nitrates and nitrites are at 0, the pH is around 8.4, the alkalinity is close to 300. So why are the fish dying.

bertoni · 08/06/2006, 11:51 PM

Alkalinity at 300 ppm is high. The usual upper limit quoted is 200 ppm. I'd let that drop.

Your hydrometer might be far off, and 1.021-1.023 is low, although probably not low enough to hurt fish. This article might help:

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-06/rhf/index.php

So there were 3 tiny damsels in the tank. What two fish were added?

dead beat reef · 08/06/2006, 11:59 PM

If you mix your own salt water you must mix/age the water
24 or better 48 hours. Use an air stone or power head.
Use R/O D/I filtered water with a TDS lower than .009.
Dont add the water for at least 24 hours of mixing. New
salt water is not fit for use in your tank. Its chem. HOTTT
It might kill anything and every thing.

bertoni · 08/07/2006, 12:01 AM

Well, that's not always true. Letting the water aerate for a few hours is fine, but many salts mix up to a usable form in a few minutes. A pH test kit would be a good guide.

scarpenter · 08/07/2006, 05:19 AM

Everything I have read says the sg should be between 1.20 to 1.25. I was told at all the local sfs to keep it around 1.22 to 1.23 if at all possible. Alkalinity always falls in the area that is marked fine on the test kit which is between 100 and 300

As for the fish added....it was a spotted cardinal and a clownfish...both also very tiny. They are the only remaining fish

kau_cinta_ku · 08/07/2006, 05:28 AM

lower sg for fish only but higher sg for corals and such.
as for the test kit i would get a better kit that tells you exact numbers and not just good or poor check out salifert kits

graveyardworm · 08/07/2006, 05:51 AM

What test kit are you using to measure Alk? I've never heard it expressed as ppm, usually Alk is expressed in either dkh or meg/l. NSW SG level is 1.026, fish or inverts it doesnt matter IMO thats what they have evolved to live in and thats where I keep it.

scarpenter · 08/07/2006, 03:10 PM

THe LFS told me to keep the SG between 1.20 to 1.25 as well as all the articles and books I have read. I use a Jungle test kit as that is all the store sells. I have very limited resources. I changed out the complete tank this morning. I washed the tank and substrate and cleaned the filter. The water smelled like a mixture between bleach and rotten eggs.

At least I was able to save the clown and the cardinal. Most importantly I saved the yellow tank. He is with a friend until I get the tank under control. I just do not understand how it has gone so well for a couple of months and then in a matter of an hour or so lose nearly everything.

08/06/2006, 05:18 PM	#1
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	water quality proble..please help We have a small 20 gallon salt water tank. We have had it up for about 6 weeks. It finally finished cycling about two weeks with 3 damsels. All seemed well. We have almost finished our 110 tank and expect to have it up midweek. SO I happened to be at our LFS getting stuff for our cichlid tank.......I bought a couple of new fish. Anyway within hours of adding the fish the water started looking cloudy. I assumed it was a mini-cycle and started watching the tank. The nitrites went through the roof in less than 2 hours and the water started looking like milk. We did a 50% water change and then again 2 hours later when it spiked again. What seemes like forever the nitrites started dropping to zero as did the nitrates. The fish actually started looking worse. So......I quickly found an old mixing bowl and made a make-shift tank out of it. All seemed well. Now 36 hours later according to all my tests.....nitrates are at 0, nitrites are at 0, ammonia is at 0 and everything else also appears ideal. The problem....the water is still cloudy. Since all reading were well and the water was starting to look better I decided to put some of the fish back in......in less than a minute I lost a couple of damsels, a starfish, and a snail. I am out of instant ocean from changing so much water. And of course our LFS are not open on Sunday so i am pretty much SOL until the morning. I would like some input if anyone has it as to what in the world is going on.....

08/06/2006, 05:59 PM	#2
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	How many fish are in the tank? The cloudiness could be a bacterial bloom. If the tank already (or still) has three damsels, I'd say it's full up. How much circulation does the tank have? __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/06/2006, 06:04 PM	#3
graveyardworm Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nottingham, NH Posts: 7,251	Sounds kinda odd, I generally use a QT for all my new additions. This has no LR or sand and contains only water, and I've never had it turn milky. Did you immediatly start feeding the fish, and if so how much? Is there any chance that the cycle wasnt finished? Also what is your SG and how are you measuring it? __________________ -David- President - New Hampshire Reef Club There’ll be no one to save, with the world in a grave Current Tank Info: 100 gal lagoon/seagrass, 100 gal sump, Lifereef 72" skimmer, 180 inwall, 125 inwall seagrass/lagoon in progress

08/06/2006, 11:51 PM	#5
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Alkalinity at 300 ppm is high. The usual upper limit quoted is 200 ppm. I'd let that drop. Your hydrometer might be far off, and 1.021-1.023 is low, although probably not low enough to hurt fish. This article might help: http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-06/rhf/index.php So there were 3 tiny damsels in the tank. What two fish were added? __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/07/2006, 12:01 AM	#7
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Well, that's not always true. Letting the water aerate for a few hours is fine, but many salts mix up to a usable form in a few minutes. A pH test kit would be a good guide. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

08/06/2006, 08:14 PM	#4
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	The specific gravity is between 1.21 and 1.23 using a hygrometer. I did not use the quarantine tank. As for the damsels....they were VERY tiny...measuring less than an inch. The water circulation was great as I was using a pump for up to 75 gallons and a powerhead up to 90 on a small 20 gallon. I am certain it had cycled before. If it were cycling shouldn't it be clearing up and the fish not dying. They lived through the hardest part of the cycle when the nitrites and nitrates were high. Then when condition started returning to normal they immediately died. The thing that stumps me the most is that all readings are good. The nitrates and nitrites are at 0, the pH is around 8.4, the alkalinity is close to 300. So why are the fish dying.

08/06/2006, 11:59 PM	#6
dead beat reef Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: New Mexico Posts: 279	If you mix your own salt water you must mix/age the water 24 or better 48 hours. Use an air stone or power head. Use R/O D/I filtered water with a TDS lower than .009. Dont add the water for at least 24 hours of mixing. New salt water is not fit for use in your tank. Its chem. HOTTT It might kill anything and every thing.

08/07/2006, 05:19 AM	#8
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	Everything I have read says the sg should be between 1.20 to 1.25. I was told at all the local sfs to keep it around 1.22 to 1.23 if at all possible. Alkalinity always falls in the area that is marked fine on the test kit which is between 100 and 300 As for the fish added....it was a spotted cardinal and a clownfish...both also very tiny. They are the only remaining fish

08/07/2006, 05:28 AM	#9
kau_cinta_ku Moved On Join Date: May 2005 Location: NW Iowa Posts: 8,669	lower sg for fish only but higher sg for corals and such. as for the test kit i would get a better kit that tells you exact numbers and not just good or poor check out salifert kits

08/07/2006, 05:51 AM	#10
graveyardworm Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Nottingham, NH Posts: 7,251	What test kit are you using to measure Alk? I've never heard it expressed as ppm, usually Alk is expressed in either dkh or meg/l. NSW SG level is 1.026, fish or inverts it doesnt matter IMO thats what they have evolved to live in and thats where I keep it. __________________ -David- President - New Hampshire Reef Club There’ll be no one to save, with the world in a grave Current Tank Info: 100 gal lagoon/seagrass, 100 gal sump, Lifereef 72" skimmer, 180 inwall, 125 inwall seagrass/lagoon in progress

08/07/2006, 03:10 PM	#11
scarpenter Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Tupelo, MS Posts: 436	THe LFS told me to keep the SG between 1.20 to 1.25 as well as all the articles and books I have read. I use a Jungle test kit as that is all the store sells. I have very limited resources. I changed out the complete tank this morning. I washed the tank and substrate and cleaned the filter. The water smelled like a mixture between bleach and rotten eggs. At least I was able to save the clown and the cardinal. Most importantly I saved the yellow tank. He is with a friend until I get the tank under control. I just do not understand how it has gone so well for a couple of months and then in a matter of an hour or so lose nearly everything.