Looking for Advice on new FOWLR

slintzen · 08/11/2006, 12:24 PM

Hello all, as you can tell, I am new to this forum. I have been doing heavy research on Saltwater Setups (particularly FOWLR) for a few weeks. I have had Freshwater on and off most of my life. Most recently a freshwater for the last 8 years.

After my initial research, I thought it might be a good idea to throw my ideas out there and let them be disected.

My initial thought is to set up a 55 Gallon FOWLR. Right now I am inclined to start with a typical 55 gallon tank and hood. (Seems to be no more expensive than just getting a tank.) I would maybe get some (25 or 45 lbs.) of live Fiji rock from Petsolutions and then finish the other 20 to 30 lbs. of rock with some base rock from a place like hirocks.

Not so sure about the live sand issue, how much LFS bagged sand can I get away with and how much live sand should I seed it with?

Lighting: I thought about starting with the hood and then building a wood canopy with a VHO 4 light ballast kit to give me about 440W. I just cannot justify spending the money on MH right now. Plus I probably will not be doing corals.

After that, I am curious about the protein skimmer debate, but am leaning towards one.

The things that I have not done enough research on are sumps and refugium. Are they needed right away?

Thanks for reading my ramlings, and I look forward to advice, even if it totally tears my idea apart. I want to get everything right the first time, and will do research for as long as it takes.

Timbor · 08/11/2006, 12:37 PM

Hey slintzen, welcome to RC!

Sounds like you have done some initial planning, so kudos to you! your system sounds like it could work, but here are a few things I noticed:

- If you are having no corals at all, I see no need for VHO lights. With 440W of VHO over a 55gal, you could keep almost any coral you want. With no corals, I would just stick to a couple NO tubes - save yourself the energy cost. I am sure you could even get some mushroom corals to grow under that lighting scheme. You can upgrade your lights later when you get addicted to corals, lol.

- As far as live sand goes, I would just use regular aragonite - no need to buy live sand, especially if it is the bagged "live" sand at the LFS that just has bacteria. That same bacteria comes for free on your liverock! Also, many of the critters present in real live sand can spread from liverock to sand. If you do not plan on using a deep sand bed, I would use regular, dry, aragonite sand.

- Are you planning on using a sump? If you want to have a nice place to put your skimmer (a good idea to start with one, they keep maintenace simpler... once you are a pro you could toy with the idea of skimmerless), refugium (always a good idea), heater, etc.

If you want a sump, the easiest route is to get your tank drilled and have a corner overflow put in. That way, you will not have to worry about hang-on-the-tank siphon overflows, which are less reliable than a drilled tank. Note, however, that its kinda hard to drill a tank full of water. so, if you want it drilled, it must be done before setting up the tank.

That should be enough for now... I will see what I can do to help after you digest this stuff!

Tim

Timbor · 08/11/2006, 12:38 PM

oh yeah, here is a link to melev's site that explains all you need to know about a sump:

http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html

Tim

sir_dudeguy · 08/11/2006, 12:39 PM

hey welcome to reef central!

first off, what type of hood do you mean? the wooden canopy? or the glass tops? i recomend NOT getting the glass tops. they cause a few problems.

For the rock, i've been doing some research about that a lot lately. i've found out from very reputable members on here that you can just get base rock from hirocks.com and that will need about 6 weeks to cycle, but it will still be good for filtering your tank. I'm going to be getting hirocks myself...i just dont know if its gonna be the 30 or 60 lb box...both are cheap..much cheaper than buying live rock, even from locals.

As for live sand, you can get one of those 40 lb bags of aragonite for about 40 bucks, and then i'd put about 20 more lbs of live sand on top if possible. But that much isnt really nessesary...10 pounds will do but it will take longer to seed.

lighting...you said you're just doing a fowlr for now...so you dont need any lights because you wont have corals..thats not to say you never will, because thats how i thought my tank was gonna start, lol...but now its reef. Imo...just get the cheapest light you can for now...doesnt have to be pc's or anything...just get a shop light if you want. That way youll have time to save up and get a metal halide for when you switch to reef...halides are completely unnessesary for a fowlr...wont do anything cuz nothing is growing

protein skimmer is a must imo. for anything bigger than 25 gallons. I have the aqua c remora on my 55 and it is amazing. i got it used too for half the price...just look on the selling forum down below.

that is a hang on skimmer tho...if you're getting a sump, then go w/something different.

sumps and fuges arent needed. your tank isnt drilled im' assuming, so you would have to buy a hob overflow. I dont have a sump on my 55, but i did make a little fuge out of an old hob filter. just threw some live sand and rock rubble in there, and put some chaeto algae in it, and it worked great. in about a week i had tons of pods which my sixline wrasse loved.

hope this helps
mike

sir_dudeguy · 08/11/2006, 12:42 PM

also on the hirock base rock...you wont get any of the beneficial stuff like bristleworms or pods, but it will still filter your tank. Then you can always add a little bit of live rock that you know has that type of stuff in there too. during the cycle would be the best time. that way all spikes that it would cause would be gone

slintzen · 08/11/2006, 01:08 PM

Thanks for the quick responses. Right now, I am like a sponge and need much advice.

I probably won't do a sump at first. Seems a bit more complicated.

As for lighting, would the regular hood that comes with a 55 gallon combo be OK to start?

Timbor · 08/11/2006, 01:53 PM

Yeah, the regular hood should be fine for now. Basically, if you have enough light to see the fish nicely, its fine.

If I were you, I would think about the sump a bit more before you decide to put it off. It will be much easier to add one at the start than later, as you can tailor your system to it. Drilled overflows with bulkheads are more reliable than hang-on overflows. Once you set up the tank, the only option you will have is a hang-on, since you can't drill the tank when it is full of water and inhabitants, lol.

You can usually do a sump for not too much money - just buy a used 20 gal. or something, then silicone in some glass baffles, get a return pump, and you are set.

One big piece of advice though... don't rush it! There is a saying that is rather ubiquitous at RC: only bad things happen quickly in a reef tank. Take your time, plan everything, then go ahead slowly. You should have a lot less problems if you take it slow, and make informed decisions.

Tim

slintzen · 08/11/2006, 01:58 PM

I'm figuring at least 2 months from the time I put water into it until the time everything is cured and ready for Fish.

I will do some more research on sumps. Maybe I can even pick up a used tank that is already drilled. Any more advice from anyone out there is welcome.

slintzen · 08/11/2006, 08:41 PM

The more I think about it, I really don't think I'm ready for the whole sump setup thing. Am I doomed or can I get away without it? I have read about hand on regugiums, even some people using some emporer power filters as refugiums.

sir_dudeguy · 08/11/2006, 08:53 PM

thats not a problem. It wont hurt to not have one, but it just makes life easier and more organized (for example heaters and skimmers and stuff will be hidden in one)

but i go sumpless and havent had any problems just cuz i dont have a sump.

as for the refugium, they're continually getting more and more popular as hang on ones...simply because you dont have to do anything to change it, and it does help....not as much as a full fuge, but it definately helps...and you dont have to use just an emperor filter...most people use the aquaclear ones as they have lots of room, but i used a millenium 2000 for mine, and it worked awsome...tank was crawlin w/pods in a week.

all you gotta do is put some live sand in the bottom of a hob filter, and then put some rock rubble over that, and then some chaeto algae or something in there...this will help your pod population grow more, and the algae will help a bit w/nitrates.

08/11/2006, 12:24 PM	#1
slintzen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Crete, IL Posts: 12	Looking for Advice on new FOWLR Hello all, as you can tell, I am new to this forum. I have been doing heavy research on Saltwater Setups (particularly FOWLR) for a few weeks. I have had Freshwater on and off most of my life. Most recently a freshwater for the last 8 years. After my initial research, I thought it might be a good idea to throw my ideas out there and let them be disected. My initial thought is to set up a 55 Gallon FOWLR. Right now I am inclined to start with a typical 55 gallon tank and hood. (Seems to be no more expensive than just getting a tank.) I would maybe get some (25 or 45 lbs.) of live Fiji rock from Petsolutions and then finish the other 20 to 30 lbs. of rock with some base rock from a place like hirocks. Not so sure about the live sand issue, how much LFS bagged sand can I get away with and how much live sand should I seed it with? Lighting: I thought about starting with the hood and then building a wood canopy with a VHO 4 light ballast kit to give me about 440W. I just cannot justify spending the money on MH right now. Plus I probably will not be doing corals. After that, I am curious about the protein skimmer debate, but am leaning towards one. The things that I have not done enough research on are sumps and refugium. Are they needed right away? Thanks for reading my ramlings, and I look forward to advice, even if it totally tears my idea apart. I want to get everything right the first time, and will do research for as long as it takes.

08/11/2006, 12:37 PM	#2
Timbor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 554	Hey slintzen, welcome to RC! Sounds like you have done some initial planning, so kudos to you! your system sounds like it could work, but here are a few things I noticed: - If you are having no corals at all, I see no need for VHO lights. With 440W of VHO over a 55gal, you could keep almost any coral you want. With no corals, I would just stick to a couple NO tubes - save yourself the energy cost. I am sure you could even get some mushroom corals to grow under that lighting scheme. You can upgrade your lights later when you get addicted to corals, lol. - As far as live sand goes, I would just use regular aragonite - no need to buy live sand, especially if it is the bagged "live" sand at the LFS that just has bacteria. That same bacteria comes for free on your liverock! Also, many of the critters present in real live sand can spread from liverock to sand. If you do not plan on using a deep sand bed, I would use regular, dry, aragonite sand. - Are you planning on using a sump? If you want to have a nice place to put your skimmer (a good idea to start with one, they keep maintenace simpler... once you are a pro you could toy with the idea of skimmerless), refugium (always a good idea), heater, etc. If you want a sump, the easiest route is to get your tank drilled and have a corner overflow put in. That way, you will not have to worry about hang-on-the-tank siphon overflows, which are less reliable than a drilled tank. Note, however, that its kinda hard to drill a tank full of water. so, if you want it drilled, it must be done before setting up the tank. That should be enough for now... I will see what I can do to help after you digest this stuff! Tim __________________ "I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is; while you're in midair you still hit those brakes... Hey, better try the emergency brake! - J.H." Current Tank Info: None currently

08/11/2006, 12:38 PM	#3
Timbor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 554	oh yeah, here is a link to melev's site that explains all you need to know about a sump: http://www.melevsreef.com/what_sump.html Tim __________________ "I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is; while you're in midair you still hit those brakes... Hey, better try the emergency brake! - J.H." Current Tank Info: None currently

08/11/2006, 12:39 PM	#4
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	hey welcome to reef central! first off, what type of hood do you mean? the wooden canopy? or the glass tops? i recomend NOT getting the glass tops. they cause a few problems. For the rock, i've been doing some research about that a lot lately. i've found out from very reputable members on here that you can just get base rock from hirocks.com and that will need about 6 weeks to cycle, but it will still be good for filtering your tank. I'm going to be getting hirocks myself...i just dont know if its gonna be the 30 or 60 lb box...both are cheap..much cheaper than buying live rock, even from locals. As for live sand, you can get one of those 40 lb bags of aragonite for about 40 bucks, and then i'd put about 20 more lbs of live sand on top if possible. But that much isnt really nessesary...10 pounds will do but it will take longer to seed. lighting...you said you're just doing a fowlr for now...so you dont need any lights because you wont have corals..thats not to say you never will, because thats how i thought my tank was gonna start, lol...but now its reef. Imo...just get the cheapest light you can for now...doesnt have to be pc's or anything...just get a shop light if you want. That way youll have time to save up and get a metal halide for when you switch to reef...halides are completely unnessesary for a fowlr...wont do anything cuz nothing is growing protein skimmer is a must imo. for anything bigger than 25 gallons. I have the aqua c remora on my 55 and it is amazing. i got it used too for half the price...just look on the selling forum down below. that is a hang on skimmer tho...if you're getting a sump, then go w/something different. sumps and fuges arent needed. your tank isnt drilled im' assuming, so you would have to buy a hob overflow. I dont have a sump on my 55, but i did make a little fuge out of an old hob filter. just threw some live sand and rock rubble in there, and put some chaeto algae in it, and it worked great. in about a week i had tons of pods which my sixline wrasse loved. hope this helps mike __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!

08/11/2006, 12:42 PM	#5
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	also on the hirock base rock...you wont get any of the beneficial stuff like bristleworms or pods, but it will still filter your tank. Then you can always add a little bit of live rock that you know has that type of stuff in there too. during the cycle would be the best time. that way all spikes that it would cause would be gone __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!

08/11/2006, 01:08 PM	#6
slintzen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Crete, IL Posts: 12	Thanks for the quick responses. Right now, I am like a sponge and need much advice. I probably won't do a sump at first. Seems a bit more complicated. As for lighting, would the regular hood that comes with a 55 gallon combo be OK to start?

08/11/2006, 01:53 PM	#7
Timbor Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 554	Yeah, the regular hood should be fine for now. Basically, if you have enough light to see the fish nicely, its fine. If I were you, I would think about the sump a bit more before you decide to put it off. It will be much easier to add one at the start than later, as you can tailor your system to it. Drilled overflows with bulkheads are more reliable than hang-on overflows. Once you set up the tank, the only option you will have is a hang-on, since you can't drill the tank when it is full of water and inhabitants, lol. You can usually do a sump for not too much money - just buy a used 20 gal. or something, then silicone in some glass baffles, get a return pump, and you are set. One big piece of advice though... don't rush it! There is a saying that is rather ubiquitous at RC: only bad things happen quickly in a reef tank. Take your time, plan everything, then go ahead slowly. You should have a lot less problems if you take it slow, and make informed decisions. Tim __________________ "I bet a funny thing about driving a car off a cliff is; while you're in midair you still hit those brakes... Hey, better try the emergency brake! - J.H." Current Tank Info: None currently

08/11/2006, 01:58 PM	#8
slintzen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Crete, IL Posts: 12	I'm figuring at least 2 months from the time I put water into it until the time everything is cured and ready for Fish. I will do some more research on sumps. Maybe I can even pick up a used tank that is already drilled. Any more advice from anyone out there is welcome.

08/11/2006, 08:41 PM	#9
slintzen Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Crete, IL Posts: 12	The more I think about it, I really don't think I'm ready for the whole sump setup thing. Am I doomed or can I get away without it? I have read about hand on regugiums, even some people using some emporer power filters as refugiums.

08/11/2006, 08:53 PM	#10
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	thats not a problem. It wont hurt to not have one, but it just makes life easier and more organized (for example heaters and skimmers and stuff will be hidden in one) but i go sumpless and havent had any problems just cuz i dont have a sump. as for the refugium, they're continually getting more and more popular as hang on ones...simply because you dont have to do anything to change it, and it does help....not as much as a full fuge, but it definately helps...and you dont have to use just an emperor filter...most people use the aquaclear ones as they have lots of room, but i used a millenium 2000 for mine, and it worked awsome...tank was crawlin w/pods in a week. all you gotta do is put some live sand in the bottom of a hob filter, and then put some rock rubble over that, and then some chaeto algae or something in there...this will help your pod population grow more, and the algae will help a bit w/nitrates. __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!