Any sparkys in the house Please look

Creetin · 09/07/2006, 08:32 PM

I added a new breaker to my box today and a couple times thruought the day one leg of the power went out thru the house usually for a second or two, Well i unplugged everything off of it and re did the breaker to see if i did anything wrong. Well it lasted 5 hrs and then power went out again on that same leg and was out for a few minutes. I turned off all breakers and turned them back on and after a minute it came back on.
The outlet is a 15 amp gfci i ran with 14 gauge and every connection is done right, But the leg that goes out is on the breaker that i installed today. There is one more breaker than the other leg.
I dunno i switched off the breaker in question, and will see if i can get a sparky to look at it.
Could someone point me to what may be causing it?
Bad outlet, or breaker,ect.
TIA

BeanAnimal · 09/07/2006, 09:01 PM

Does the leg go out with the breark OFF or removed?

You could have many problems and without more details, giving you advice could prove dangerous. You could have a loose lug on the service lead to the leg (or oxidized). You could have a ground fault of some sort somewhere. I would have somebody over to look at it ASAP as you could have a very serious problem that could cause electrocution or fire.

Creetin · 09/07/2006, 09:06 PM

Fortunately i have an uncle that works for edison, and another uncle thats an electrician. Unfortunately they are asleep and i cant getthem by till tomarrow eve.
The problem is when the breaker is on. It just started doing it when i added it, and is fine with it out.
I have it off now, I am just debating on removing the breaker right now, and waiting for one of my uncle's to look at it.

Creetin · 09/07/2006, 09:27 PM

WEll i was thinking, The only thing i left out and just thought of is that when i installed the breaker i didnt have any more openings in the neutral bus bar, and ran the neutral wire into a spot where it had one already.
I thightened up pretty tight. I figured it was a neutral, and and could handle it.
I am thinking that was a wrong assumption.
I am thinking i should remove the breaker and wires, and wait till i can have someone look at it.
Couls that be the problem? If so i'll remove it now.

BeanAnimal · 09/07/2006, 10:37 PM

Well... I don't think code allows you to piggy back wires in bus terminals... but with that said if it is a neutral.. then it is a neutral.

We can troubleshoot this in a very logicial manner... but the safest thing to do is to have a local expert look at it. You description of the problem leads me to beleive you have a miswire someplace. I can tell you I am an expert and give you advice, but without being on site that is not really a safe thing to do. Pull the breaker and have them look at it ASAP.

MinibowMatt · 09/08/2006, 05:55 AM

Creetin-
Is the GFI tripping, or is it a connection issue? Maybe your new breaker is bad.. if it was rated for 15A maybe it is tripping sooner that it is supposed to. I would exchange the breaker before spending the cash on an electrician. (JMO!)

BeanAnimal · 09/08/2006, 07:18 AM

Matt I read the post as the fact that he was having trouble with the entire service leg, not just the branch circuit. If that is the case, he needs to have somebody come out. It's the only safe thing to do. Even if a fualty breaker was dumping current to neutral or ground... it should not be taking the whole service leg down. Something is very wrong and that is very serious.

atvdave · 09/08/2006, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Creetin
The outlet is a 15 amp gfci i ran with 14 gauge and every connection is done right, But the leg that goes out is on the breaker that i installed today. There is one more breaker than the other leg.
TIA

I don't know how many watts your putting through the breaker but 14g wire seams very small. For light's I'd go no less than 10g.
Also I'd get a 20a or higher breaker.

as far as pigging backing your ground wire I read further on down in one of your post's, I don't see anything wrong with that. I don't know if it meets code, but I see it all the time in High voltage, current application in electric motors with no problems.

Also one thing to check if your wire is getting hot, you need larger wire like 10g or higher.

Dave

Cuervo · 09/08/2006, 10:51 AM

According to local codes here, 14g is acceptable for 15a, 12g for 20a circuits. (code does vary from place to place)

As far as losing the whole leg going down - yeah get a professional to look at that for you.

If no breakers are tripping, then it may very well be an issue with the neutral side, but you're messing with something that can have absolutely disasterous results. Much better safe than sorry.

Creetin · 09/08/2006, 12:03 PM

Thankyou very much guys, I was wrong its 3 wire 12 guage romex.
I turned the breaker off and it hasnt done anything yet. No outtagges, But the breaker is off.
Talked to my uncle, and he says he will come by monday to look at it. I turned all my appliances on thats on that leg, and it didnt do anything. (fridge,air,washer,dryer,stove,lights, ect.) Nothing blinked, and no outtage. That eliminated me knowing i am overdrawing the service line, or problems with that.
What he was saying that its electrically not feesable for that leg to go and not trip the breaker if i am over drawing the service.
I dunno i am stumped, so is my uncle until he can come by and inspect it. I know a little about elect, My grandfather was an electrican as well. I am not a dufus when it comes with electric, But not knowledgeable to work with the service. (No where near it)
He is coming by monday. I appreciate all the help. It will be a couple more days before i get my lights in because of the breaker. Oh well could be worse.
Thanks again ALL!!!

Creetin · 09/08/2006, 12:11 PM

No no wires were hot or a burning smell from the box, I instantly checked that first. I have one 20 am circuit with gfci for my lights, and pumps. (Using that to keep pumps and all the other stuff going right now) and added that 15 amp line for small pumps ca/rx and all the small stuff maybe a heater as well.
The 20 amp one is going to have about 1100 watts pulling thru it, and the 15 amp one about 7-800 watts at the most. Thats if i did the addition right anbd its within tolorances of each breaker and wire gauge.

trendle · 09/08/2006, 12:56 PM

I lost the neutral cable in the power box in my side yard a couple years ago. If you have problems with the whole leg failing you need to call your power company. The breaker or a piggy-backed neutral connection would not cause that to happen.

75reef · 09/10/2006, 12:15 AM

Just food for thought, at the recepticle, did you push the wires into it or use the screw on the side? I have had some issues with our new house where the electrician used the push in method and every once in a while the whole leg of the circuit is lost. He came back and changed it over to using the screws and the problem went away. Be carefull, electricity will bite you when you least expect it. My dad was an electrician at Disneyland for 37 years and he told some wild stories.

BeanAnimal · 09/10/2006, 12:12 PM

there is no way that losing the neutral on a single outlet should take the whole servie leg down. Secondly, that is very scary that a licensed electrician used stab ins!!! Most of them know better. Must have been one LAZY CHEAP DUDE!

lakee911 · 09/11/2006, 10:30 AM

Piggybacking is in violation of code.

BeanAnimal · 09/11/2006, 01:08 PM

It is monday... have you had somebody look at this yet?

jkreefer · 09/11/2006, 09:40 PM

Bean animal i like your style man.......i wish there were more people like you out in the feild.

BeanAnimal · 09/11/2006, 10:46 PM

I am not an electrician... I just slept at holliday in last night!

I spent most of my life around electricity and was taught by some good people. I have spent over 15 years in the coal mining industry (among other things) and have to deal with my share of electrical problems (though I only know enough 3-phase to get myself electrocuted). When it comes to single phase wiring... if you can deal with the CFRs and MSHA the NEC is easy to understand and follow

I now own an IT company and put in network infrastructure for a living.

I learn something new every day and try to pass on the helpfull stuff to others in hopes that they can learn and be safe as well.

Thanks for the compliment jeff. Maybe one day I will get bored with datacom and cross-over and be an electrician myself!

jkreefer · 09/11/2006, 10:55 PM

we would be lucky to have ya

jkreefer · 09/11/2006, 10:56 PM

so creetin.....any word yet.....

lakee911 · 09/12/2006, 05:24 AM

I spent most of my life around electricity too! I'm not old enough to have grown up with those oil lamps

It's really amazing to see some of the firehazards that people are operating. You look at someone's pic of their skimmer and in the background they have like 63 plugs w/ adapters, splitters, etc plugged into a cheapy brown extension cord that is draped over their lights and a bail of straw sitting nearby (ok, well...)

Jason

Paul B · 09/12/2006, 06:15 AM

I have been an electrician almost 40 years, a bad breaker will not come back on again and no matter how you install a receptacle or connect a neutral to the neutral bar (as long as it's tight) the power will not come on and off. The only thing that will do that is a loose connection and if it's the entire house it could be only in two places. At the service entrance (not likely) or the bus bars in your panel. I have seen many times, and on my own home the main breaker connections to the bus in the panel being corroded.
Also if you have aluminum wire have that checked right away. It corrodes and when it heats up you lose power. IMO you moved the bus bar when you installed the breaker and it is not making a good contact. This is a dangerous condition so got your unkle to look at it. Of course it is hard to tell from here.
Good Luck.
Paul

Creetin · 09/19/2006, 06:30 AM

Sorry i didnt see this, I should have subscibed to it.
It was a bad double pull main breaker, Well it was going bad, and was arcing when it was pulling more juice than it wanted to.
It wasnt overloaded, But when i moved tank and used all the power on the appliance leg It pushed it over the edge.
(Corrosion of some sort) It finnaly blew before my uncle could come by, Lost half of the leg untill he came by. 1/2 hr cheap 30 dollar fix. Luckaly i had the replaceable main in my GE box. I guess some models you have to scrap the whole box if the main goes bad.
Sorry to keep ya in suspense, and THANKS MUCH for the help.
I wont ever make a IBEW joke again. LOL

09/07/2006, 08:32 PM	#1
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	Any sparkys in the house Please look I added a new breaker to my box today and a couple times thruought the day one leg of the power went out thru the house usually for a second or two, Well i unplugged everything off of it and re did the breaker to see if i did anything wrong. Well it lasted 5 hrs and then power went out again on that same leg and was out for a few minutes. I turned off all breakers and turned them back on and after a minute it came back on. The outlet is a 15 amp gfci i ran with 14 gauge and every connection is done right, But the leg that goes out is on the breaker that i installed today. There is one more breaker than the other leg. I dunno i switched off the breaker in question, and will see if i can get a sparky to look at it. Could someone point me to what may be causing it? Bad outlet, or breaker,ect. TIA __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

09/07/2006, 09:06 PM	#3
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	Fortunately i have an uncle that works for edison, and another uncle thats an electrician. Unfortunately they are asleep and i cant getthem by till tomarrow eve. The problem is when the breaker is on. It just started doing it when i added it, and is fine with it out. I have it off now, I am just debating on removing the breaker right now, and waiting for one of my uncle's to look at it. __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

09/07/2006, 09:27 PM	#4
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	WEll i was thinking, The only thing i left out and just thought of is that when i installed the breaker i didnt have any more openings in the neutral bus bar, and ran the neutral wire into a spot where it had one already. I thightened up pretty tight. I figured it was a neutral, and and could handle it. I am thinking that was a wrong assumption. I am thinking i should remove the breaker and wires, and wait till i can have someone look at it. Couls that be the problem? If so i'll remove it now. __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

09/08/2006, 05:55 AM	#6
MinibowMatt Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: In Another Times Forgotten Space Posts: 3,389	Creetin- Is the GFI tripping, or is it a connection issue? Maybe your new breaker is bad.. if it was rated for 15A maybe it is tripping sooner that it is supposed to. I would exchange the breaker before spending the cash on an electrician. (JMO!) __________________ ----------------------- Matt Prop & Save! "Sure dont know what I'm going for, but I'm gonna go for it for sure!"

09/08/2006, 12:03 PM	#10
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	Thankyou very much guys, I was wrong its 3 wire 12 guage romex. I turned the breaker off and it hasnt done anything yet. No outtagges, But the breaker is off. Talked to my uncle, and he says he will come by monday to look at it. I turned all my appliances on thats on that leg, and it didnt do anything. (fridge,air,washer,dryer,stove,lights, ect.) Nothing blinked, and no outtage. That eliminated me knowing i am overdrawing the service line, or problems with that. What he was saying that its electrically not feesable for that leg to go and not trip the breaker if i am over drawing the service. I dunno i am stumped, so is my uncle until he can come by and inspect it. I know a little about elect, My grandfather was an electrican as well. I am not a dufus when it comes with electric, But not knowledgeable to work with the service. (No where near it) He is coming by monday. I appreciate all the help. It will be a couple more days before i get my lights in because of the breaker. Oh well could be worse. Thanks again ALL!!! __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep Last edited by Creetin; 09/08/2006 at 12:14 PM.

09/07/2006, 09:01 PM	#2
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Does the leg go out with the breark OFF or removed? You could have many problems and without more details, giving you advice could prove dangerous. You could have a loose lug on the service lead to the leg (or oxidized). You could have a ground fault of some sort somewhere. I would have somebody over to look at it ASAP as you could have a very serious problem that could cause electrocution or fire.

09/07/2006, 10:37 PM	#5
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Well... I don't think code allows you to piggy back wires in bus terminals... but with that said if it is a neutral.. then it is a neutral. We can troubleshoot this in a very logicial manner... but the safest thing to do is to have a local expert look at it. You description of the problem leads me to beleive you have a miswire someplace. I can tell you I am an expert and give you advice, but without being on site that is not really a safe thing to do. Pull the breaker and have them look at it ASAP.

09/08/2006, 07:18 AM	#7
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	Matt I read the post as the fact that he was having trouble with the entire service leg, not just the branch circuit. If that is the case, he needs to have somebody come out. It's the only safe thing to do. Even if a fualty breaker was dumping current to neutral or ground... it should not be taking the whole service leg down. Something is very wrong and that is very serious.

09/08/2006, 10:51 AM	#9
Cuervo Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Melbourne, Fla Posts: 395	According to local codes here, 14g is acceptable for 15a, 12g for 20a circuits. (code does vary from place to place) As far as losing the whole leg going down - yeah get a professional to look at that for you. If no breakers are tripping, then it may very well be an issue with the neutral side, but you're messing with something that can have absolutely disasterous results. Much better safe than sorry.

09/08/2006, 12:11 PM	#11
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	No no wires were hot or a burning smell from the box, I instantly checked that first. I have one 20 am circuit with gfci for my lights, and pumps. (Using that to keep pumps and all the other stuff going right now) and added that 15 amp line for small pumps ca/rx and all the small stuff maybe a heater as well. The 20 amp one is going to have about 1100 watts pulling thru it, and the 15 amp one about 7-800 watts at the most. Thats if i did the addition right anbd its within tolorances of each breaker and wire gauge. __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep

09/08/2006, 12:56 PM	#12
trendle Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Peoria County, IL Posts: 125	I lost the neutral cable in the power box in my side yard a couple years ago. If you have problems with the whole leg failing you need to call your power company. The breaker or a piggy-backed neutral connection would not cause that to happen.

09/10/2006, 12:15 AM	#13
75reef Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Phoenix, Az. Posts: 97	Just food for thought, at the recepticle, did you push the wires into it or use the screw on the side? I have had some issues with our new house where the electrician used the push in method and every once in a while the whole leg of the circuit is lost. He came back and changed it over to using the screws and the problem went away. Be carefull, electricity will bite you when you least expect it. My dad was an electrician at Disneyland for 37 years and he told some wild stories.

09/10/2006, 12:12 PM	#14
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	there is no way that losing the neutral on a single outlet should take the whole servie leg down. Secondly, that is very scary that a licensed electrician used stab ins!!! Most of them know better. Must have been one LAZY CHEAP DUDE!

09/11/2006, 10:30 AM	#15
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	Piggybacking is in violation of code.

09/11/2006, 01:08 PM	#16
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	It is monday... have you had somebody look at this yet?

09/11/2006, 09:40 PM	#17
jkreefer Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NOR CAL Posts: 1,350	Bean animal i like your style man.......i wish there were more people like you out in the feild.

09/11/2006, 10:46 PM	#18
BeanAnimal Registered Member Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Pittsburgh Posts: 20,772	I am not an electrician... I just slept at holliday in last night! I spent most of my life around electricity and was taught by some good people. I have spent over 15 years in the coal mining industry (among other things) and have to deal with my share of electrical problems (though I only know enough 3-phase to get myself electrocuted). When it comes to single phase wiring... if you can deal with the CFRs and MSHA the NEC is easy to understand and follow I now own an IT company and put in network infrastructure for a living. I learn something new every day and try to pass on the helpfull stuff to others in hopes that they can learn and be safe as well. Thanks for the compliment jeff. Maybe one day I will get bored with datacom and cross-over and be an electrician myself! Last edited by BeanAnimal; 09/11/2006 at 11:27 PM.

09/11/2006, 10:55 PM	#19
jkreefer Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NOR CAL Posts: 1,350	we would be lucky to have ya

09/11/2006, 10:56 PM	#20
jkreefer Premium Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: NOR CAL Posts: 1,350	so creetin.....any word yet.....

09/12/2006, 05:24 AM	#21
lakee911 Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 1,988	I spent most of my life around electricity too! I'm not old enough to have grown up with those oil lamps It's really amazing to see some of the firehazards that people are operating. You look at someone's pic of their skimmer and in the background they have like 63 plugs w/ adapters, splitters, etc plugged into a cheapy brown extension cord that is draped over their lights and a bail of straw sitting nearby (ok, well...) Jason

09/12/2006, 06:15 AM	#22
Paul B Premium Member Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 15,549	I have been an electrician almost 40 years, a bad breaker will not come back on again and no matter how you install a receptacle or connect a neutral to the neutral bar (as long as it's tight) the power will not come on and off. The only thing that will do that is a loose connection and if it's the entire house it could be only in two places. At the service entrance (not likely) or the bus bars in your panel. I have seen many times, and on my own home the main breaker connections to the bus in the panel being corroded. Also if you have aluminum wire have that checked right away. It corrodes and when it heats up you lose power. IMO you moved the bus bar when you installed the breaker and it is not making a good contact. This is a dangerous condition so got your unkle to look at it. Of course it is hard to tell from here. Good Luck. Paul __________________ I used to get shocked when I put my hand in my tank. Then the electric eel went dead. Current Tank Info: 100 gal reef set up in 1971

09/19/2006, 06:30 AM	#23
Creetin Limestone Cowboy. Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: In a little place i like to call a little place. Posts: 4,552	Sorry i didnt see this, I should have subscibed to it. It was a bad double pull main breaker, Well it was going bad, and was arcing when it was pulling more juice than it wanted to. It wasnt overloaded, But when i moved tank and used all the power on the appliance leg It pushed it over the edge. (Corrosion of some sort) It finnaly blew before my uncle could come by, Lost half of the leg untill he came by. 1/2 hr cheap 30 dollar fix. Luckaly i had the replaceable main in my GE box. I guess some models you have to scrap the whole box if the main goes bad. Sorry to keep ya in suspense, and THANKS MUCH for the help. I wont ever make a IBEW joke again. LOL __________________ If only common sense was common. Current Tank Info: 300 gal marineland deep