Diatom Help Please.

RSTAHLMAN · 09/10/2006, 09:26 AM

I have been trying to battle my red/brown diatom problem for about 4 months now and I just cannot seem to get on top of it. Its covering the rocks, glass, the whole sandbed, overflow, even the snails. When I try to clean the tank of the diatom (every 5 days or so), its's back on 5 days again.
Here's the breakdown of the tank:

Tank has been up and running for about 7 months
90 gallon, 120lbs fiji, 20 gal sump, softies/ some lps
4x96w PC 10K & actinics (12hrs actinics, 10hrs 10K's).
All water put in is RO/DI
I run carbon, phosban, and phosguard/silicate remover, change every 2 weeks.

I have 30 assorted snails, 30 assorted hermits, CBS, ss cucumber, Diamondback goby, and some other assorted fish

I followed some suggestions on the board to include: Changing lights, reducing phosphate/nitrate/silicate, switching salt mix's, do more water changes, get a goby, more cleaning crews, etc. Noting is working apparently.

I replaced all l4 pc lights 2 months ago
I have used 3 different h2o test kits to verify readings
I change 10% (10gallons) per week, and up to 40% when the diatom covers everything.
Reduced photoperiod to 10hrs actinics/8 hrs 10k's.
i have used Instant Ocean Reef Mix for the first 4 months, coralife for the next two and I am currently using Oceanic Natural Mix.
i feed the fish 2 cubes mysis, formula one, and flakes every other day. My corals get one 1-2 pumps of Phytoplankton every 5 days.

my readings are:
PH 8.2
Temp 82
Salinity 1.024
dkh- 8
calcium- 500
ammonia- undetectable
nitrite- undetectable
nitrate- 0-20
Phosphate- zero
Silicate- zero

Any other ideas? Im losing my mind with this tank, and my corals are starting to suffer.
My LFS is clueless.
Any help workd be appreciated, thanks in advance.

sir_dudeguy · 09/10/2006, 09:37 AM

so your nitrates are somewhere in between 0 and 20? what test are you using?

Also, test for nitrates and phosphates at night.

But if your nitrates might be up to 20, then thats whats causing it most likely. Get rid of your nitrates for starters. Then go from there.

Avi · 09/10/2006, 09:44 AM

Well, from what you report here, you're doing a great job...so there's something that's missing since the problem is so persistent. Since you're doing everything "according to Hoyle," and the only thing that might well be relevant is your substrate. I have to assume from all that you mention, that the silicates on which the diatoms are proliferating, are being generated in unusually high amounts from your substrate. Changing that may be what you need...or you can try Rowaphos which might be more effective than the other, probably good, mediums that you've tried already.

On the other hand, the other possibility that I can think of is that rather than diatoms, the problem is dinoglagelates, which may appear similar to diatoms. Take a look at this photo:

http://cygnus.pbwiki.com/f/DSCN2745_small.JPG

Is that a possibility?

RSTAHLMAN · 09/10/2006, 09:46 AM

Im using a Sera Test for the nitrates, I find it a little more consistent than my Tetra or AQ Pharm ones. When I have it tested at the LFS, they say it is undetectable.
Also, how else could I reduce the Nitrates? I change floss every 2 weeks, and turn the water over 10% a week (not including occasional 25-40% changes).
Thanks for the reply

RSTAHLMAN · 09/10/2006, 09:49 AM

Avi - THAT's IT!

It's almost identical to my tank, not much on the glass, mostly on the substrate, LR and overflow.

What is it again? Is it algae? My LFS diagnosed it as Diatom, but I take what they say with a grain of salt.

PatMayo · 09/10/2006, 09:53 AM

Make sure you have zero TDS RO/DI water and use a meter to test. Do you use the Phosguard in a reactor? Are you growing a macro algae such as cheato in your sump and do you have good growth? Flow won't solve the problem but it will help. What type of flow do you have in the tank?

This is what I would do. I would make sure I have good flow in the main tank. I would reduce the lighting even further. A little bit every day until it was only on for 6 to 8 hours total. I would further reduce feeding. I would feed less and then only every other day. If you do not have a macro algae growing and flourishing I would get that going as soon as possible. I don't see mention of a skimmer. If you don't have one you need one. If you do have one and you are not getting good skimmate production then you need to get one or tune up what you have.

It sounds like you are doing most things right. I use RowaPhos in a reactor and it works really well. I don't think you will get the ful benefit of the product if you don't run it a reactor or a cannister filter.

Changing salt mixes wil not help your cause. I would find a brand that you like and stick with it. I use Instant Ocean because it is readily available and it is very consistent from bucket to bucket. I have been using it for years.

Do those things and see what happens.

Regards,

Pat

sir_dudeguy · 09/10/2006, 09:57 AM

avi could you post a closer pic of that stuff? is it kinda fuzzy looking? i did a google image search for it but i guess you must have spelled it wrong cuz it didnt come up with anything.

RSTAHLMAN
Do you have any form of filtration other than live rock? Like say a wet/dry with bioballs, or a canister or hang on filter with filter media in it? (not including carbon) Those things can (and in my experience will) build up nitrates pretty fast. Mine were usually around 1-5, and then in one weekend they shot up to 20, then in one week they were up at 100.

But one way to get rid of nitrates is to get a fuge...do you hav one? If not, maybe try getting a hob aquaclear filter. Get the one thats rated to like 50 gallons or something. Then throw some live sand, rock rubble, and some chaeto algae in there. Not only will this help your pod population, but it'll help reduce nitrates.

RSTAHLMAN · 09/10/2006, 10:04 AM

Pat-

I have not tested my RO/DI unit, I purchased it new about 8 months ago. Both the phosguard and phosban are used in filter bags below my floss pad in the sump on a tray. I use both phospahte removers bacause one claims to remove silicate as well.
I dont have any macro algae growing in my tank that I know of, not sure how to/how it works.
I have a skimmer, it is a sealife systems in sump rated at 200gph, I have put a new outlet valve on it to increace the skimmate, but it seems to be either overflowing water back into the sump through the neck at high trim, or little skimming at all, no im-between.
Ill reduce the lighting and feeding. How much should i feed? I have 2 false perc's, 1 small coral beauty, 1 pseudochromis, and 1 royal gramma.

I changed salt mixes because I was told some have a higher silicate content than others.

RSTAHLMAN · 09/10/2006, 10:12 AM

sir-dudeguy:

I have a drilled bottom with overflow into a berlin sump, where my skimmer sits. I removed all the bio-balls because I read they raise nitrates. I use just a floss pad, and vacuum the sump monthly. I have a 2-3" substrate bottom. I have a ViaAqua 2600 return pump, a mag 5 for the skimmer, 2 maxxijet 1200'S on a wavemaker in the tank for circ, and a AQ 4000 in the center of the tank facing the glass. The sump is kinda full, im not sure if I can fit much more in there. Would a UV sterilizer help?
Also, my water is always cloudy, even afetr a 40% water change.

The algae in my tank looks like the one in Avi'S pic, it is not hairy, more of like a carpet, it peels off the rock and substrate like latex, and can be blown off with a baster. I dont have any pic's of it at the moment.

Avi · 09/10/2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by sir_dudeguy
avi could you post a closer pic of that stuff? is it kinda fuzzy looking? i did a google image search for it but i guess you must have spelled it wrong cuz it didnt come up with anything.

Dinoflagelates are protozoans and not algae. There is a lot of scientific literature about them because they wreak havoc on commercial fishing locations, but precious few photos that seem to be available on the Internet of aquarium outbreaks.

This may be something to make reference to, as it appears to be the way that someone did address this in an aquarium and ultimately beat it:

http://cygnus.pbwiki.com/Reef

RSTAHLMAN, Keep us posted here on your progress.

Avi · 09/10/2006, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSTAHLMAN
The algae in my tank looks like the one in Avi'S pic, it is not hairy, more of like a carpet, it peels off the rock and substrate like latex, and can be blown off with a baster. I dont have any pic's of it at the moment.

That you're able to remove it that way pretty much assures that it isn't algae or diatoms and that it is dinoflagelates, since that is the case with it.

PatMayo · 09/10/2006, 10:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by RSTAHLMAN
Pat-

I have not tested my RO/DI unit, I purchased it new about 8 months ago. Both the phosguard and phosban are used in filter bags below my floss pad in the sump on a tray. I use both phospahte removers bacause one claims to remove silicate as well.
I dont have any macro algae growing in my tank that I know of, not sure how to/how it works.
I have a skimmer, it is a sealife systems in sump rated at 200gph, I have put a new outlet valve on it to increace the skimmate, but it seems to be either overflowing water back into the sump through the neck at high trim, or little skimming at all, no im-between.
Ill reduce the lighting and feeding. How much should i feed? I have 2 false perc's, 1 small coral beauty, 1 pseudochromis, and 1 royal gramma.

I changed salt mixes because I was told some have a higher silicate content than others.

Typically the DI portion of the filter array will need to be replaced way before 8 months is up. I have a 90 AGA and I replace the DI portion of my system quite frequently. I would purchase a good meter, you can buy one at Airwaterice.com. I would find out what my TDS is at and then replace whatever it is you need to replace in the system. I would also buy a reactor to run the GFO in. The fact that water is running over them will not work very well. In my estimation you are wasting your money. Two Little Fishes makes an inexpensive reactor that works very well.

From what I hear you need to get the skimmer working well and get some macro algae growing. I can give you a link that shows what it looks like. This was a test done my Melev regarding lighting for macro algae growth. It will show you how most set ups are. At least you have a good idea. Is it possible to get a larger sump? Do you have the space?

3 most important things to do that will significantly help with your problem. You need to have zero TDS. Find a way to measure and then take the appropriate action to correct. You must have good skimmer performance. If not find a way to tune, buy a new unit, mabe find a local club where someone can help you. Grow a macro algae. In my opinion those 3 things are critical to a successful tank, at least longterm.

http://www.melevsreef.com/fuge_bulb.html

Good luck,

Regards.

Pat

RSTAHLMAN · 09/10/2006, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Avi
Dinoflagelates are protozoans and not algae. There is a lot of scientific literature about them because they wreak havoc on commercial fishing locations, but precious few photos that seem to be available on the Internet of aquarium outbreaks.

This may be something to make reference to, as it appears to be the way that someone did address this in an aquarium and ultimately beat it:

http://cygnus.pbwiki.com/Reef

RSTAHLMAN, Keep us posted here on your progress.

Ill snap some pics of my outbreak and post them here when I get a chance.

Thanks for the help folks. So, a rundown of what I need to do (?):
Reduce Nitrates, feeding, and lighting.
Fix skimmer or deep-six current one, get a reactor.
Measure TDS/replace filters
look into macro-algae.

Ok, so I have some remedies- but how did I go from a beautiful reef tank to a Dino-Farm so fast? Where did it come from so I can avoid it? Did it come on my live rock or with a fish/coral I purchased? My tank was just where I wanted it, xenias weer doing great, my readings barely ever fluctuated. What could have caused this? I have never seen it on any of my other tanks.

Thanks again, folks.

09/10/2006, 09:26 AM	#1
RSTAHLMAN Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NY Posts: 13	Diatom Help Please. I have been trying to battle my red/brown diatom problem for about 4 months now and I just cannot seem to get on top of it. Its covering the rocks, glass, the whole sandbed, overflow, even the snails. When I try to clean the tank of the diatom (every 5 days or so), its's back on 5 days again. Here's the breakdown of the tank: Tank has been up and running for about 7 months 90 gallon, 120lbs fiji, 20 gal sump, softies/ some lps 4x96w PC 10K & actinics (12hrs actinics, 10hrs 10K's). All water put in is RO/DI I run carbon, phosban, and phosguard/silicate remover, change every 2 weeks. I have 30 assorted snails, 30 assorted hermits, CBS, ss cucumber, Diamondback goby, and some other assorted fish I followed some suggestions on the board to include: Changing lights, reducing phosphate/nitrate/silicate, switching salt mix's, do more water changes, get a goby, more cleaning crews, etc. Noting is working apparently. I replaced all l4 pc lights 2 months ago I have used 3 different h2o test kits to verify readings I change 10% (10gallons) per week, and up to 40% when the diatom covers everything. Reduced photoperiod to 10hrs actinics/8 hrs 10k's. i have used Instant Ocean Reef Mix for the first 4 months, coralife for the next two and I am currently using Oceanic Natural Mix. i feed the fish 2 cubes mysis, formula one, and flakes every other day. My corals get one 1-2 pumps of Phytoplankton every 5 days. my readings are: PH 8.2 Temp 82 Salinity 1.024 dkh- 8 calcium- 500 ammonia- undetectable nitrite- undetectable nitrate- 0-20 Phosphate- zero Silicate- zero Any other ideas? Im losing my mind with this tank, and my corals are starting to suffer. My LFS is clueless. Any help workd be appreciated, thanks in advance.

09/10/2006, 09:37 AM	#2
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	so your nitrates are somewhere in between 0 and 20? what test are you using? Also, test for nitrates and phosphates at night. But if your nitrates might be up to 20, then thats whats causing it most likely. Get rid of your nitrates for starters. Then go from there. __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!

09/10/2006, 09:44 AM	#3
Avi Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 7,327	Well, from what you report here, you're doing a great job...so there's something that's missing since the problem is so persistent. Since you're doing everything "according to Hoyle," and the only thing that might well be relevant is your substrate. I have to assume from all that you mention, that the silicates on which the diatoms are proliferating, are being generated in unusually high amounts from your substrate. Changing that may be what you need...or you can try Rowaphos which might be more effective than the other, probably good, mediums that you've tried already. On the other hand, the other possibility that I can think of is that rather than diatoms, the problem is dinoglagelates, which may appear similar to diatoms. Take a look at this photo: http://cygnus.pbwiki.com/f/DSCN2745_small.JPG Is that a possibility? __________________ I'd keep the whole ocean if my den were big enough Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef with 210 lbs. of live rock, Aqua-C EV180 Skimmer, Aquactinic double 250W MH with blue plus t5 support; 58 gallon freshwater planted tank using CO2 and T5s; 30-gallon cube with a few fancy goldfish; and a 110 gallon FOWLR

09/10/2006, 09:53 AM	#6
PatMayo Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Seattle Posts: 2,843	Make sure you have zero TDS RO/DI water and use a meter to test. Do you use the Phosguard in a reactor? Are you growing a macro algae such as cheato in your sump and do you have good growth? Flow won't solve the problem but it will help. What type of flow do you have in the tank? This is what I would do. I would make sure I have good flow in the main tank. I would reduce the lighting even further. A little bit every day until it was only on for 6 to 8 hours total. I would further reduce feeding. I would feed less and then only every other day. If you do not have a macro algae growing and flourishing I would get that going as soon as possible. I don't see mention of a skimmer. If you don't have one you need one. If you do have one and you are not getting good skimmate production then you need to get one or tune up what you have. It sounds like you are doing most things right. I use RowaPhos in a reactor and it works really well. I don't think you will get the ful benefit of the product if you don't run it a reactor or a cannister filter. Changing salt mixes wil not help your cause. I would find a brand that you like and stick with it. I use Instant Ocean because it is readily available and it is very consistent from bucket to bucket. I have been using it for years. Do those things and see what happens. Regards, Pat __________________ 90 AGA Megaflow (Setup 1-24-06) 120 Lbs. Liverock EuroReef RS 100 Skimmer 2 X 150 MH 2 X 96 watt PC Actinic 2 Clarki Clowns (31 months old) 1 Niger Trigger (Owned 6 months) 2 Tunze 6055 PH Current Tank Info: 90 AGA Megaflow To Be Mixed Reef

09/10/2006, 09:57 AM	#7
sir_dudeguy Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Portland, OR Posts: 10,841	avi could you post a closer pic of that stuff? is it kinda fuzzy looking? i did a google image search for it but i guess you must have spelled it wrong cuz it didnt come up with anything. RSTAHLMAN Do you have any form of filtration other than live rock? Like say a wet/dry with bioballs, or a canister or hang on filter with filter media in it? (not including carbon) Those things can (and in my experience will) build up nitrates pretty fast. Mine were usually around 1-5, and then in one weekend they shot up to 20, then in one week they were up at 100. But one way to get rid of nitrates is to get a fuge...do you hav one? If not, maybe try getting a hob aquaclear filter. Get the one thats rated to like 50 gallons or something. Then throw some live sand, rock rubble, and some chaeto algae in there. Not only will this help your pod population, but it'll help reduce nitrates. __________________ TAKE...LUCK!!!

09/10/2006, 09:46 AM	#4
RSTAHLMAN Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NY Posts: 13	Im using a Sera Test for the nitrates, I find it a little more consistent than my Tetra or AQ Pharm ones. When I have it tested at the LFS, they say it is undetectable. Also, how else could I reduce the Nitrates? I change floss every 2 weeks, and turn the water over 10% a week (not including occasional 25-40% changes). Thanks for the reply

09/10/2006, 09:49 AM	#5
RSTAHLMAN Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NY Posts: 13	Avi - THAT's IT! It's almost identical to my tank, not much on the glass, mostly on the substrate, LR and overflow. What is it again? Is it algae? My LFS diagnosed it as Diatom, but I take what they say with a grain of salt.

09/10/2006, 10:04 AM	#8
RSTAHLMAN Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NY Posts: 13	Pat- I have not tested my RO/DI unit, I purchased it new about 8 months ago. Both the phosguard and phosban are used in filter bags below my floss pad in the sump on a tray. I use both phospahte removers bacause one claims to remove silicate as well. I dont have any macro algae growing in my tank that I know of, not sure how to/how it works. I have a skimmer, it is a sealife systems in sump rated at 200gph, I have put a new outlet valve on it to increace the skimmate, but it seems to be either overflowing water back into the sump through the neck at high trim, or little skimming at all, no im-between. Ill reduce the lighting and feeding. How much should i feed? I have 2 false perc's, 1 small coral beauty, 1 pseudochromis, and 1 royal gramma. I changed salt mixes because I was told some have a higher silicate content than others.

09/10/2006, 10:12 AM	#9
RSTAHLMAN Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: NY Posts: 13	sir-dudeguy: I have a drilled bottom with overflow into a berlin sump, where my skimmer sits. I removed all the bio-balls because I read they raise nitrates. I use just a floss pad, and vacuum the sump monthly. I have a 2-3" substrate bottom. I have a ViaAqua 2600 return pump, a mag 5 for the skimmer, 2 maxxijet 1200'S on a wavemaker in the tank for circ, and a AQ 4000 in the center of the tank facing the glass. The sump is kinda full, im not sure if I can fit much more in there. Would a UV sterilizer help? Also, my water is always cloudy, even afetr a 40% water change. The algae in my tank looks like the one in Avi'S pic, it is not hairy, more of like a carpet, it peels off the rock and substrate like latex, and can be blown off with a baster. I dont have any pic's of it at the moment.