low pH (7.6) high dKH (14) Low ca (250)

jlfnjlf · 10/08/2006, 02:30 PM

I have been communicating with some of the folks on my local club forum and they suggested I post here.

I had started dosing with B-ionic without establishing a proper baseline. I now understand that establishing the baseline is critical to having success with B-ionic. Right now my pH is stuck low (7.6-7.8) and my dKH is high (14+). I attempted to buffer up the pH, but that only drove the dKH off the scale for my Salifert test kit. The Ca has been in a very slow decline as well. As of yesterday I have discontinued the B-ionic, and I am doing 10% dally water changes. If the Ca continues to drop should I consider supplementing the Ca, or should I go for larger water changes? I am using the original Instant Ocean salt. All of my other water parameters are right in line Ammonia=0 Nitrites=0 nitrates=<5. I do not test phosphates at this time, but I am not having a problem with algae.

Any direction or guidance would be greatly appreciated.

John

Randy Holmes-Farley · 10/08/2006, 02:50 PM

Buffers are never a good way to raise pH, as you found. So don't use any more.

Raise the calcium to 420 ppm or so with calcium chloride (ESV, Kent, Warner, Dowflake from Home Depot, etc.).

This article and calculator guide your through that process:
Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

Reef Chemicals Calculator
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html

The low pH, if real, is driven by excess CO2 in your home air. The best options are more aeration with fresh air, or using limewater. This article has more:

Low pH: Causes and Cures
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm

jlfnjlf · 10/08/2006, 09:42 PM

OK so I have 2 pH meters I calibrated both tonight and one is reading 7.7 and the other is reading 8.3. The 7.7 is coming from my Milwaukee SMS122 controller, and the 8.3 is coming from my Hanna HI98103 pH meter that I use in my discus tank. I use to have 2 of the Hanna HI98103 meters but one sank in my reef tank. I got the Milwaukee used to control the CO2 on my planted discus tank, but I have been using it in the reef tank because I soaked the other Hanna.

I am so frustrated I could just spit. I got that from my grandmother.

So I am still focusing on the low Ca. I do trust the Salifert test kits. Perhaps I should just get a Salifert pH test kit and toss the meters. The issue I have had with other pH test kits is with the shades between OK and OH CRAP...

Randy thank you for the info. it is what led me to triple check my pH readings.

Has anyone have a similar experience with different pH meters? I have been considering upgrading to the Hanna pHep4 so if I drop it in will be OK. Anyone use this meter?

That's all for now,

John

Randy Holmes-Farley · 10/09/2006, 06:09 AM

I am so frustrated I could just spit. I got that from my grandmother.

When you calibrated the Milwaukee,and then went back to read the calibration solutions, they read OK? What brand and pH for the standards?
I prefer pH meters to kits.

Might either one be near light ballasts? Some are interfered with by electrical emissions. Try measuring pH away from t he reef tank in a cup of water.

jlfnjlf · 10/09/2006, 09:07 AM

I am not sure I understand the question about brand for the pH standards. I ordered 250ml of each of the calibration solution at the same time that I got the pinpoint meter. I looked at the bottles and I do not see any name brand on them.

I use pH calibration solutions (pH 7.00 and pH 4.00). I will have to order the pH 10.00. I keep my discus pH at 6.5 so low accuracy has been more critical than high in the past. I have replaced the battery in the pinpoint meter within the last 3 months. I have been reading on the web that when the Milwaukee probes start going out they will give erroneously low readings. Odd just what I am seeing.

I have checked the pH away from the tank in a 25ml graduated cylinder and I get the exact same results.

I want to get a new pinpoint meter or two, but I am just not sure which one is the best choice overall. Any advice?

John

Billybeau1 · 10/09/2006, 09:36 AM

I have been very happy with my pinpoint. I also use the calibration fluids 7.00 and 10.00 by the same company. American Marine.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 10/09/2006, 02:25 PM

I am not sure I understand the question about brand for the pH standards. I ordered 250ml of each of the calibration solution at the same time that I got the pinpoint meter. I looked at the bottles and I do not see any name brand on them.

If they do not have a brand, I wouldn't trust them. Some are totally unacceptable (see the second article):

Measuring pH with a Meter
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/chem.htm

A Comparison of pH Calibration Buffers
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/rhf/index.htm

jlfnjlf · 10/09/2006, 03:12 PM

Randy,

do you have a brand that you you personally use?

Thank you so much for all the information,

John

jlfnjlf · 10/09/2006, 07:16 PM

I went out and picked up a Salifert pH test kit and wouldn't you know pH is right between 8.0 and 8.3.

I will be ordering Hanna calibration solution in the morning mostly because they made the meter I like the most.

Randy Holmes-Farley · 10/10/2006, 05:45 AM

Hannah, Milwaukee, American Marine/Pinpoint, and others are generally fine to use.

Let us know how things work out with new calibration.

10/08/2006, 02:30 PM	#1
jlfnjlf Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Out of my mind (in Citrus Heights, Ca) Posts: 824	low pH (7.6) high dKH (14) Low ca (250) I have been communicating with some of the folks on my local club forum and they suggested I post here. I had started dosing with B-ionic without establishing a proper baseline. I now understand that establishing the baseline is critical to having success with B-ionic. Right now my pH is stuck low (7.6-7.8) and my dKH is high (14+). I attempted to buffer up the pH, but that only drove the dKH off the scale for my Salifert test kit. The Ca has been in a very slow decline as well. As of yesterday I have discontinued the B-ionic, and I am doing 10% dally water changes. If the Ca continues to drop should I consider supplementing the Ca, or should I go for larger water changes? I am using the original Instant Ocean salt. All of my other water parameters are right in line Ammonia=0 Nitrites=0 nitrates=<5. I do not test phosphates at this time, but I am not having a problem with algae. Any direction or guidance would be greatly appreciated. John __________________ John L. Ford I never want to be an expert, I just want to know all the stuff they know. Then I can decide for myself if it is valid information. Current Tank Info: SAID GOOD BY TO REEF ON FEBRUARY 23 2008 125g planted discus tank

10/08/2006, 02:50 PM	#2
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Buffers are never a good way to raise pH, as you found. So don't use any more. Raise the calcium to 420 ppm or so with calcium chloride (ESV, Kent, Warner, Dowflake from Home Depot, etc.). This article and calculator guide your through that process: Solving Calcium and Alkalinity Problems http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm Reef Chemicals Calculator http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chem_calc3.html The low pH, if real, is driven by excess CO2 in your home air. The best options are more aeration with fresh air, or using limewater. This article has more: Low pH: Causes and Cures http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-09/rhf/index.htm __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

10/08/2006, 09:42 PM	#3
jlfnjlf Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Out of my mind (in Citrus Heights, Ca) Posts: 824	OK so I have 2 pH meters I calibrated both tonight and one is reading 7.7 and the other is reading 8.3. The 7.7 is coming from my Milwaukee SMS122 controller, and the 8.3 is coming from my Hanna HI98103 pH meter that I use in my discus tank. I use to have 2 of the Hanna HI98103 meters but one sank in my reef tank. I got the Milwaukee used to control the CO2 on my planted discus tank, but I have been using it in the reef tank because I soaked the other Hanna. I am so frustrated I could just spit. I got that from my grandmother. So I am still focusing on the low Ca. I do trust the Salifert test kits. Perhaps I should just get a Salifert pH test kit and toss the meters. The issue I have had with other pH test kits is with the shades between OK and OH CRAP... Randy thank you for the info. it is what led me to triple check my pH readings. Has anyone have a similar experience with different pH meters? I have been considering upgrading to the Hanna pHep4 so if I drop it in will be OK. Anyone use this meter? That's all for now, John __________________ John L. Ford I never want to be an expert, I just want to know all the stuff they know. Then I can decide for myself if it is valid information. Current Tank Info: SAID GOOD BY TO REEF ON FEBRUARY 23 2008 125g planted discus tank Last edited by jlfnjlf; 10/08/2006 at 09:58 PM.

10/09/2006, 06:09 AM	#4
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I am so frustrated I could just spit. I got that from my grandmother. When you calibrated the Milwaukee,and then went back to read the calibration solutions, they read OK? What brand and pH for the standards? I prefer pH meters to kits. Might either one be near light ballasts? Some are interfered with by electrical emissions. Try measuring pH away from t he reef tank in a cup of water. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

10/09/2006, 09:07 AM	#5
jlfnjlf Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Out of my mind (in Citrus Heights, Ca) Posts: 824	I am not sure I understand the question about brand for the pH standards. I ordered 250ml of each of the calibration solution at the same time that I got the pinpoint meter. I looked at the bottles and I do not see any name brand on them. I use pH calibration solutions (pH 7.00 and pH 4.00). I will have to order the pH 10.00. I keep my discus pH at 6.5 so low accuracy has been more critical than high in the past. I have replaced the battery in the pinpoint meter within the last 3 months. I have been reading on the web that when the Milwaukee probes start going out they will give erroneously low readings. Odd just what I am seeing. I have checked the pH away from the tank in a 25ml graduated cylinder and I get the exact same results. I want to get a new pinpoint meter or two, but I am just not sure which one is the best choice overall. Any advice? John __________________ John L. Ford I never want to be an expert, I just want to know all the stuff they know. Then I can decide for myself if it is valid information. Current Tank Info: SAID GOOD BY TO REEF ON FEBRUARY 23 2008 125g planted discus tank

10/09/2006, 09:36 AM	#6
Billybeau1 Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Dyer, Indiana Posts: 12,010	I have been very happy with my pinpoint. I also use the calibration fluids 7.00 and 10.00 by the same company. American Marine.

10/09/2006, 02:25 PM	#7
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	I am not sure I understand the question about brand for the pH standards. I ordered 250ml of each of the calibration solution at the same time that I got the pinpoint meter. I looked at the bottles and I do not see any name brand on them. If they do not have a brand, I wouldn't trust them. Some are totally unacceptable (see the second article): Measuring pH with a Meter http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/chem.htm A Comparison of pH Calibration Buffers http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-02/rhf/index.htm __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef

10/09/2006, 03:12 PM	#8
jlfnjlf Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Out of my mind (in Citrus Heights, Ca) Posts: 824	Randy, do you have a brand that you you personally use? Thank you so much for all the information, John __________________ John L. Ford I never want to be an expert, I just want to know all the stuff they know. Then I can decide for myself if it is valid information. Current Tank Info: SAID GOOD BY TO REEF ON FEBRUARY 23 2008 125g planted discus tank

10/09/2006, 07:16 PM	#9
jlfnjlf Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Out of my mind (in Citrus Heights, Ca) Posts: 824	I went out and picked up a Salifert pH test kit and wouldn't you know pH is right between 8.0 and 8.3. I will be ordering Hanna calibration solution in the morning mostly because they made the meter I like the most. __________________ John L. Ford I never want to be an expert, I just want to know all the stuff they know. Then I can decide for myself if it is valid information. Current Tank Info: SAID GOOD BY TO REEF ON FEBRUARY 23 2008 125g planted discus tank

10/10/2006, 05:45 AM	#10
Randy Holmes-Farley Reef Chemist Join Date: Apr 2001 Location: Arlington, Massachusetts Posts: 86,233	Hannah, Milwaukee, American Marine/Pinpoint, and others are generally fine to use. Let us know how things work out with new calibration. __________________ Randy Holmes-Farley Current Tank Info: 120 mixed reef