siphon break

skriz · 10/18/2006, 09:28 PM

I need to add a siphon break to my circulation lines. I have read posts about people drilling holes and adding lines leading somewhere and blah blah blah. Anyway, I don't get it and I need help. A pic or diagram or something.

I don't get why water wouldn't shoot out of the hole. And if I add tubing to this hole, then why wouldn't water shoot out of it? And if I were to add this tubing, where would I lead it to?

Confused

Nabber86 · 10/18/2006, 09:37 PM

Just make sure the siphion break hole is pointing downward so the incomming water shoots into the water in your tank.

Avi · 10/18/2006, 09:50 PM

Drill a hole well down enough below the water line so that surface rippling will not cause air to get in an micro-bubbles to be created. If it's down far enough in that way water will just be pushed out of the hole into the reef's water column. But, when the return pump is off for any reason, and the water starts to drain down to the sump, when it gets to the level of the hole, it will pull in air and stop the siphon, and so the draining into the sump.

Mighty Dread · 10/18/2006, 10:33 PM

Yeah - Just drill a hole in your line(s) right below the water line. When you lose power or if you have any type of pump failure the water will only drain to the hole you drilled and no further because once the hole sucks some air in the reverse syphoning will stop.

Or just install a check valve in your plumbing.

skriz · 10/19/2006, 08:59 AM

Great! thanks guys.

what size hole should I drill? 1/4"? bigger?

musty baby · 10/19/2006, 11:35 AM

I think mine is 3/32, maybe 1/8, and works fine.

musty baby · 10/19/2006, 11:36 AM

...on a 1" return

rockindacheeks · 10/19/2006, 11:50 AM

check valves can fail... siphon break is a better option

skriz · 10/19/2006, 01:35 PM

the return lines are 1.5" and are reduced to 1" at the very end. then it is split into 2 x 3/4" outlets (locline).

could I drill a hole and attatch a line/tube that goes to the center of the tank? this way I get a little circ and the center and also a siphon break?

AZDesertRat · 10/19/2006, 01:40 PM

Mount the returns close to the surface and maintain enough roo in the sump for that amount of backflow and forget about the holes and check valves. DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME..... then you will never have to loose sleep worrying about an overflow.
Siphon breaks and check valves are ways to cover up a poor design and will eventually fail.

skriz · 10/19/2006, 03:15 PM

I wish I could do that AZ! Since the tank is 10' long, even keeping the returns close to the surface would drain too much water.

Also, I have yet to find the right pvc fittings so that I can mount the locline closer to the surface.

AZDesertRat · 10/19/2006, 04:31 PM

How big is your sump? My tank is a 5 foot long 100G and my sump is a 30G, I can safely contain a 2" backflow into my sump with no problem. I always keep that room plus a little more available in the sump and can still add about 7 gallons for evaporation with room to spare.

skriz · 10/19/2006, 06:10 PM

My tank is 10' long 650g. the sump is a 135g. I haven't check exactly how much backflow it can handle, but Just by visual check, it is not much. If it overflows, I am screwed!

I NEED a siphon break! a flawless siphon break!

Mighty Dread · 10/19/2006, 06:19 PM

Look. Just drill a small hole -start off small first. Turn off your pump and check to see if it works. A tiny hole should be good enough - if not, put on a bigger bit and go a little bigger - then check it again.

A syphon break can and WILL NOT fail!

PROBLEM SOLVED.

Nabber86 · 10/19/2006, 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skriz
I wish I could do that AZ! Since the tank is 10' long, even keeping the returns close to the surface would drain too much water.

Also, I have yet to find the right pvc fittings so that I can mount the locline closer to the surface.

How full does your sump run? Sounds like you might need to lower the operating level in the sump a little to allow for greater emergency storage.

AZDesertRat · 10/19/2006, 06:50 PM

Sounds like you are keepng your sump too full. A siphon break hole WILL fail almost guaranteed. All it takes is a small piece of food floating on top a little algae growing on it, a snail to cover it ....to many possibilities. A true siphon break is returns close enough to the surface to break the siphon.
Depending on the height of your main tank you only have 20 to 30 gallons in an inch of backflow, if its 24" high you have 27 gallons per inch. You should be able to contain 27 gallons in a 135G sump easily? Thats only 5" in a 135G and if you are running the sump higher than that you are definitely asking for trouble.
Only the tip of the LocLines needs to be close to the surface, you can loop it up that close, just make sure you always have at least one return and preferrable more that high.

skriz · 10/20/2006, 08:11 PM

I have 2 returns. THey are plumber from one pump. At the pump I have installed a Y piece, splitting the output. from there, two pipes go up to the tank. Do both of the returns have to have a break, or will it work with just one?

AZDesertRat · 10/21/2006, 01:02 PM

One should do it.

lllosingit · 10/21/2006, 01:20 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by AZDesertRat
Sounds like you are keepng your sump too full. A siphon break hole WILL fail almost guaranteed.

Can you explain how they fail???
I've been doing this for about 25 years and have yet to see one fail.
I've never even heard of one failing.
Granted you have to check once in a while to make sure Coraline hasn't started to gow over the hole but other than that I see nothing else that could cause a failure.
If your worried about it being obstructed by something you can always tap it with a clear line and run the line down the overflow.

AZDesertRat · 10/21/2006, 01:32 PM

Algae growth, food particles, snails .......

Tang Salad · 10/21/2006, 01:37 PM

I don't really agree.
IME, it's hard to clog a siphon-break hole. There's enough suction thru them that no amount of food or scum will clog 'em.

Tang Salad · 10/21/2006, 01:37 PM

I mean, assuming you check up on your tank reasonably frequently,

skriz · 10/21/2006, 05:33 PM

I like the idea of running a line into the overflow.
Using clear line, is that so you can see inside the line? Wouldn't that encourage algae growth?

lllosingit · 10/21/2006, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by skriz
I like the idea of running a line into the overflow.
Using clear line, is that so you can see inside the line? Wouldn't that encourage algae growth?

I guess it could, I never used it but saw it used on a freshwater system. I suppose you could use a dark colored line if needed or run it along the underside of the return line.
I drilled a good size hole not sure what size it was I never had a problem, I suppose if your that worried you could drill two holes.
Like I said I've ran plain old syphon breaks for many years and never had a flood because of it.
The only flood I had was caused by the bottom splitting on a 29g tank, I was lucky enough to be in the room when it happened so I saved all the fish and corals and captured about 10 gallons of water. Talk about a mess.

rdmpe · 10/22/2006, 07:48 AM

If you drill holes in your return pipes for siphon breaks, just hit them with a toothbrush once in a while to keep them from getting too gunked up. I used 1/8" holes angled downward and about 1/4" below the normal water surface.

There are other fancier ways to do it by running tubing from the siphon break back into your overflow so that you get even less backsiphon (since the siphon breaks as soon as the overflow drains down below the end of the tubing) but I didn't have to worry about it so the simpler method works for me.

10/18/2006, 09:28 PM	#1
skriz Moved On Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 502	siphon break I need to add a siphon break to my circulation lines. I have read posts about people drilling holes and adding lines leading somewhere and blah blah blah. Anyway, I don't get it and I need help. A pic or diagram or something. I don't get why water wouldn't shoot out of the hole. And if I add tubing to this hole, then why wouldn't water shoot out of it? And if I were to add this tubing, where would I lead it to? Confused

10/18/2006, 09:50 PM	#3
Avi Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Westchester County, NY Posts: 7,327	Drill a hole well down enough below the water line so that surface rippling will not cause air to get in an micro-bubbles to be created. If it's down far enough in that way water will just be pushed out of the hole into the reef's water column. But, when the return pump is off for any reason, and the water starts to drain down to the sump, when it gets to the level of the hole, it will pull in air and stop the siphon, and so the draining into the sump. __________________ I'd keep the whole ocean if my den were big enough Current Tank Info: 120 gallon reef with 210 lbs. of live rock, Aqua-C EV180 Skimmer, Aquactinic double 250W MH with blue plus t5 support; 58 gallon freshwater planted tank using CO2 and T5s; 30-gallon cube with a few fancy goldfish; and a 110 gallon FOWLR

10/18/2006, 10:33 PM	#4
Mighty Dread Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Worldwide Posts: 141	Yeah - Just drill a hole in your line(s) right below the water line. When you lose power or if you have any type of pump failure the water will only drain to the hole you drilled and no further because once the hole sucks some air in the reverse syphoning will stop. Or just install a check valve in your plumbing. __________________ One good thing about music when it hits you feel no pain. Current Tank Info: 70 gal. w/ sump & fuge

10/19/2006, 11:50 AM	#8
rockindacheeks Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Corona, California Posts: 2,072	check valves can fail... siphon break is a better option __________________ My name is Dan, and I'm a closet reefer... Current Tank Info: 28g nanocube

10/19/2006, 06:19 PM	#14
Mighty Dread Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Worldwide Posts: 141	Look. Just drill a small hole -start off small first. Turn off your pump and check to see if it works. A tiny hole should be good enough - if not, put on a bigger bit and go a little bigger - then check it again. A syphon break can and WILL NOT fail! PROBLEM SOLVED. __________________ One good thing about music when it hits you feel no pain. Current Tank Info: 70 gal. w/ sump & fuge

10/18/2006, 09:37 PM	#2
Nabber86 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Stalewater Kansas Posts: 408	Just make sure the siphion break hole is pointing downward so the incomming water shoots into the water in your tank.

10/19/2006, 08:59 AM	#5
skriz Moved On Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 502	Great! thanks guys. what size hole should I drill? 1/4"? bigger?

10/19/2006, 11:35 AM	#6
musty baby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: over yonder Posts: 1,751	I think mine is 3/32, maybe 1/8, and works fine.

10/19/2006, 11:36 AM	#7
musty baby Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: over yonder Posts: 1,751	...on a 1" return

10/19/2006, 01:35 PM	#9
skriz Moved On Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 502	the return lines are 1.5" and are reduced to 1" at the very end. then it is split into 2 x 3/4" outlets (locline). could I drill a hole and attatch a line/tube that goes to the center of the tank? this way I get a little circ and the center and also a siphon break?

10/19/2006, 01:40 PM	#10
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	Mount the returns close to the surface and maintain enough roo in the sump for that amount of backflow and forget about the holes and check valves. DO IT RIGHT THE FIRST TIME..... then you will never have to loose sleep worrying about an overflow. Siphon breaks and check valves are ways to cover up a poor design and will eventually fail.

10/19/2006, 03:15 PM	#11
skriz Moved On Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 502	I wish I could do that AZ! Since the tank is 10' long, even keeping the returns close to the surface would drain too much water. Also, I have yet to find the right pvc fittings so that I can mount the locline closer to the surface.

10/19/2006, 04:31 PM	#12
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	How big is your sump? My tank is a 5 foot long 100G and my sump is a 30G, I can safely contain a 2" backflow into my sump with no problem. I always keep that room plus a little more available in the sump and can still add about 7 gallons for evaporation with room to spare.

10/19/2006, 06:10 PM	#13
skriz Moved On Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 502	My tank is 10' long 650g. the sump is a 135g. I haven't check exactly how much backflow it can handle, but Just by visual check, it is not much. If it overflows, I am screwed! I NEED a siphon break! a flawless siphon break!

10/19/2006, 06:50 PM	#16
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	Sounds like you are keepng your sump too full. A siphon break hole WILL fail almost guaranteed. All it takes is a small piece of food floating on top a little algae growing on it, a snail to cover it ....to many possibilities. A true siphon break is returns close enough to the surface to break the siphon. Depending on the height of your main tank you only have 20 to 30 gallons in an inch of backflow, if its 24" high you have 27 gallons per inch. You should be able to contain 27 gallons in a 135G sump easily? Thats only 5" in a 135G and if you are running the sump higher than that you are definitely asking for trouble. Only the tip of the LocLines needs to be close to the surface, you can loop it up that close, just make sure you always have at least one return and preferrable more that high.

10/20/2006, 08:11 PM	#17
skriz Moved On Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 502	I have 2 returns. THey are plumber from one pump. At the pump I have installed a Y piece, splitting the output. from there, two pipes go up to the tank. Do both of the returns have to have a break, or will it work with just one?

10/21/2006, 01:02 PM	#18
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	One should do it.

10/21/2006, 01:32 PM	#20
AZDesertRat Moved On Join Date: Jan 2002 Location: NW Phoenix Posts: 16,621	Algae growth, food particles, snails .......

10/21/2006, 01:37 PM	#21
Tang Salad Algae skeptic Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: 78702 Posts: 3,098	I don't really agree. IME, it's hard to clog a siphon-break hole. There's enough suction thru them that no amount of food or scum will clog 'em. __________________ Your algae is not special. Current Tank Info: TBD ADA 120-P SPS NLPS

10/21/2006, 05:33 PM	#23
skriz Moved On Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 502	I like the idea of running a line into the overflow. Using clear line, is that so you can see inside the line? Wouldn't that encourage algae growth?

10/22/2006, 07:48 AM	#25
rdmpe Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 3,737	If you drill holes in your return pipes for siphon breaks, just hit them with a toothbrush once in a while to keep them from getting too gunked up. I used 1/8" holes angled downward and about 1/4" below the normal water surface. There are other fancier ways to do it by running tubing from the siphon break back into your overflow so that you get even less backsiphon (since the siphon breaks as soon as the overflow drains down below the end of the tubing) but I didn't have to worry about it so the simpler method works for me.