nitrate issue-where is it coming from?

moon jelly · 11/21/2006, 09:29 PM

My tank has been set up for 14 months and I have always had nitrates. Once upon a time, unknowingly, I had bio balls with about 40lbs of live rock. My nitrates were 160!I found out at IMAC to get rid of the bioballs which I did last May. I still can not get rid of the nitrates. I have done 50% water changes every couple of days for 3 weeks. The lowest level of nitrate I got was 2.5. I then thought, maybe I am doing too many water changes. I did not do a water change for 5 weeks ( I was out of town). When I got home, my nitrates were 7.5 (this past Thursday). I did a 50% water change on Saturday and on Monday my nitrates increased to 10. Why am I getting such a high nitrate level and what else can I do to erradicate it? I use RODI water for water changes. Any advice would be appreciated as I am becoming very frustrated. Thanx!

kiknchikn · 11/21/2006, 09:32 PM

The nitrates are probably from overfeeding, which most people (including myself) tend to do.

Have you tried a refugium with macro algae in it? Or a protein skimmer?

drummereef · 11/21/2006, 09:34 PM

Do you have any filter socks, sponges, floss or any other type of mechanical media that you implement? How deep is your sandbed, and what sand type are you using? What skimmer do you have?

amike5 · 11/21/2006, 09:48 PM

Have you tested your RO water? If your membrane has gone bad, it could be coming in from there as well; my tap tests at 20ppm.

moon jelly · 11/21/2006, 10:07 PM

I have an ASM G2 skimmer (for a 29 gal tank/20 gal sump). There is a sponge on my skimmer.I have a bag of carbon and a bag of purigen in my sump. My sandbed is 3-4 inches deep.I am not sure what sand I have. I believe it is aragonite 1-2mm.

drummereef · 11/21/2006, 10:30 PM

How often do you clean the sponge? Could be part of the issue. How often do you change the carbon and clean the filter bag? The sand is fine, maybe on the shallow side of a dsb, but it's most likely ok for nitrate reduction.

Dr.FuManchu · 11/21/2006, 10:35 PM

Its probably your sand bed. They are known to become Nitrate traps.

Sk8r · 11/21/2006, 10:42 PM

Actually, carbon bags, and maybe Purigen, can become nitrate sinks if left in the flow more than a week. You may want to deepen your sand bed to 4" if it is 3". Aragonite is fine.

Feed each fish enough to fill its mouth once daily. Period.

Some tap water brings nitrates with it. You are using ro/di, right?

If you have 1lb rock per gallon, why would you have a sponge in at all? They're as bad as bioballs.

drummereef · 11/21/2006, 10:44 PM

What foods do you feed?

moon jelly · 11/21/2006, 11:11 PM

What great suggestions to ponder! Please keep em coming!

I have not tested my RODI. I bought it new from a reputable person at the end of July.

I have not cleaned the sponge. It is on the return from the skimmer. Would it be OK to take it off and leave it off?

I change the carbon bag and purigen monthly. Both of these are totally submersed in the sump.

In regards to the sandbed, how do I make it not a nitrate trap?

I feed my fish a frozen concoction that a local guy makes. Not sure of all the ingredients (cuz it is a secret) but I know that is contains mussels, clams, squid, grouper, oyster eggs, brocoli, carrots, garlic, shrimp, brine shrimp and ???? It feeds omnivores, carnivores and corals. Many people in the area use it and they do not have nitrate issues (and fish/corals love it). I cut down feedings from twice a day to once a day. I might be feeding too much of a chunk.

drummereef · 11/21/2006, 11:15 PM

Take off and leave off the sponge on the skimmer for sure. The feedings could also be causing excess nitrates as well. If there is uneaten food or a lot of liquid you are adding to the tank at feeding, all these factors could be adding to the prob. Definitely cup back on the feeding and get rid of the sponge.

Don't worry about the sandbed yet. A lot of BB people rip on us.

Do you have a proper cleanup crew for the DSB?

What fish and how many do you have in the tank?

moon jelly · 11/21/2006, 11:37 PM

I have 4 fish.....2 false perculas, orchid dottyback and a neon gobby. I also have 2 skunk cleaner shrimp, about 6 red reef hermit crabs, tuxedo sea urchin (not sure if he is considered clean up crew), 1 cerith snail, a couple margarita snails, some whelks (hitchhikers). I had some nassarius snails but they died off. Not sure if whelks got to them. Do I need anything else? I will remove the sponge. I like the idea of a DSB.....it is what is in the ocean.

Sk8r · 11/21/2006, 11:49 PM

How is your flow? Have you got any black spots in that sandbed, anything you can see? You might get a fighting conch---medium to small size: they can burrow into the sandbed and deal with that...but not until you catch those whelks, if that's what they are!

The strombus grazer snail looks like a whelk, but never grows beyond a third of an inch long. A whelk actually preys on other snails.

You do know that nassarius snails burrow into the sand and live there...

Your urchin is a good piece of cleanup crew. But you need more snails, and you need them to survive. Do you have bristleworms? They would be a very good thing. They clean where snails can't go. And is your skimmer working? How often do you empty the collection cup? S/b at least weekly.

moon jelly · 11/22/2006, 12:11 AM

Sk8r-thanx for the response!

I think my flow is good. I have a 9.5 mag drive in my sump with 2 returns (each return divides into 2).

I don't have black spots in sand bed. For sure they are whelks.They are about 1 inch long. I thought I had 2 or 3 until I started to remove them and put them into my sump (I didn't want to kill them.....I know, kinda girly). I have removed 10 of them and I was wondering if somehow, someway they were getting back into my tank.

I know nassarius snails live in the sand bed. When I had them, I loved to watch them come out to feed. Reminds me of night of the living dead.

What snails/how many do you think I should get? I have lotsa bristleworms. No problem there.

I don't get alot of skimmate. It is light green and I posted about this before but no one had any answers. I got a new ASM G2 in Aug. I know it is large for my tank but someday.... I want to upgrade. I was wondering if it is working too well and that is the reason I don't get too much skimmate. Most is skimmed out. Also, for a while I was doing the massive water changes. Maybe my water was "too clean".

drummereef · 11/22/2006, 12:13 AM

Sounds like you are doing everything you should be then. What nitrate test kit are you using?

moon jelly · 11/22/2006, 12:23 AM

I use salifert. But I must admit, it is kinda difficult to distinguish the pinks. I double checked it with another kit (don't know name) and they both came out the same.

The frustating thing for me is that I do think I am doing alot of the right things. This nitrate thing is a mind boggler. Being a scientific type of person, this is driving me crazy cuz it does not make sense.

drummereef-thanks for taking your time with your responses. I truly appreciate it!

drummereef · 11/22/2006, 12:25 AM

I'd check it in a couple of days now that the sponge is history. That really could be the issue mostly. Sounds like your husbandry is right on.

Sk8r · 11/22/2006, 12:29 AM

Just go on catching those whelks. Looks like you got a prime infestation of them with some rock or other.

I'm betting when you get the sponge out, that could be part of it. Also, if you have portions of that complex food that aren't being eaten at all by certain elements of your tank, that might be a source of nitrate. Maybe going over to a simple food like cyclopeeze for a while might help sort it out. Just thinking out loud here.
If your lfs can test the TDS of the ro/di water, that might be a good thing, too. We live in a farming area, and nitrates COME in our tapwater. The ro/di ought to totally get it out, but if something in there's not working right, that could be something to look at if other remediation doesn't work.

moon jelly · 11/22/2006, 12:32 AM

Thanks again drummereef! Is it possible that the nitrate can go down that fast after removing the sponge? BTW-before this skimmer, I had a different one that did not have a sponge. Still had a nitrate problem and still had no skimmate (I thought it was not working so that is why I went out and bought the ASM G2) Crazy!!!!!!!

drummereef · 11/22/2006, 12:36 AM

It's possible I suppose. Since you are removing the source, I would do a water change and test after that. Hopefully that's all it is. It's so close with your nitrates only reading between 7-10. That last little bit is always hard to pin down. The ASM should smoke - nice skimmer. Don't tell me your other skimmer was a skilter or seaclone.

If the food you are feeding (secret recipe) is frozen, I would drain the liquid off and feed only the solid food. Could be a contributor.

moon jelly · 11/22/2006, 12:42 AM

no it wasn't. it was a sealife systems. my reef guy told it was a good design. he even put it into his tank and you should have seen all the skimmate it produced! i never heard of skilter but have heard of seaclone. it has a bad rap. surprised they are still selling. btw-gateway from the west...are you from st louis?

drummereef · 11/22/2006, 12:44 AM

Yup, St. Louis is where I hail from. I love Chicago, though. Wish I lived there sometimes.

moon jelly · 11/22/2006, 12:50 AM

i have been to st louis a few times......for hawks/blues games! fun city!!!!!

drummereef · 11/22/2006, 12:54 AM

Ah, nice. The Blues majorly suck this year... I mean the last 5 years. I don't really follow hockey, but I know enough to know they are really not good.

moon jelly · 11/22/2006, 12:58 AM

the hawks have sucked for even longer. congrats on the cardinals world series win. tony larussa used to be the manager of the white sox. i missed the series though cuz i was in namibia.
i didn't find out who won the series (or even who was in the world series) til last week when i got home.

11/21/2006, 09:29 PM	#1
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	nitrate issue-where is it coming from? My tank has been set up for 14 months and I have always had nitrates. Once upon a time, unknowingly, I had bio balls with about 40lbs of live rock. My nitrates were 160!I found out at IMAC to get rid of the bioballs which I did last May. I still can not get rid of the nitrates. I have done 50% water changes every couple of days for 3 weeks. The lowest level of nitrate I got was 2.5. I then thought, maybe I am doing too many water changes. I did not do a water change for 5 weeks ( I was out of town). When I got home, my nitrates were 7.5 (this past Thursday). I did a 50% water change on Saturday and on Monday my nitrates increased to 10. Why am I getting such a high nitrate level and what else can I do to erradicate it? I use RODI water for water changes. Any advice would be appreciated as I am becoming very frustrated. Thanx!

11/21/2006, 09:32 PM	#2
kiknchikn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Bel Air, MD Posts: 1,556	The nitrates are probably from overfeeding, which most people (including myself) tend to do. Have you tried a refugium with macro algae in it? Or a protein skimmer? __________________ I am a proud member of the Chesapeake Marine Aquaria Society (CMAS). If you're in the Maryland area check us out! Current Tank Info: 30g nano reef

11/21/2006, 09:34 PM	#3
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	Do you have any filter socks, sponges, floss or any other type of mechanical media that you implement? How deep is your sandbed, and what sand type are you using? What skimmer do you have? __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/21/2006, 10:30 PM	#6
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	How often do you clean the sponge? Could be part of the issue. How often do you change the carbon and clean the filter bag? The sand is fine, maybe on the shallow side of a dsb, but it's most likely ok for nitrate reduction. __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/21/2006, 10:42 PM	#8
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Actually, carbon bags, and maybe Purigen, can become nitrate sinks if left in the flow more than a week. You may want to deepen your sand bed to 4" if it is 3". Aragonite is fine. Feed each fish enough to fill its mouth once daily. Period. Some tap water brings nitrates with it. You are using ro/di, right? If you have 1lb rock per gallon, why would you have a sponge in at all? They're as bad as bioballs. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

11/21/2006, 09:48 PM	#4
amike5 Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Englewood, CO Posts: 724	Have you tested your RO water? If your membrane has gone bad, it could be coming in from there as well; my tap tests at 20ppm.

11/21/2006, 10:07 PM	#5
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	I have an ASM G2 skimmer (for a 29 gal tank/20 gal sump). There is a sponge on my skimmer.I have a bag of carbon and a bag of purigen in my sump. My sandbed is 3-4 inches deep.I am not sure what sand I have. I believe it is aragonite 1-2mm.

11/21/2006, 10:35 PM	#7
Dr.FuManchu Moved On Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Northern VA Posts: 257	Its probably your sand bed. They are known to become Nitrate traps.

11/21/2006, 10:44 PM	#9
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	What foods do you feed? __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/21/2006, 11:11 PM	#10
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	What great suggestions to ponder! Please keep em coming! I have not tested my RODI. I bought it new from a reputable person at the end of July. I have not cleaned the sponge. It is on the return from the skimmer. Would it be OK to take it off and leave it off? I change the carbon bag and purigen monthly. Both of these are totally submersed in the sump. In regards to the sandbed, how do I make it not a nitrate trap? I feed my fish a frozen concoction that a local guy makes. Not sure of all the ingredients (cuz it is a secret) but I know that is contains mussels, clams, squid, grouper, oyster eggs, brocoli, carrots, garlic, shrimp, brine shrimp and ???? It feeds omnivores, carnivores and corals. Many people in the area use it and they do not have nitrate issues (and fish/corals love it). I cut down feedings from twice a day to once a day. I might be feeding too much of a chunk.

11/21/2006, 11:15 PM	#11
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	Take off and leave off the sponge on the skimmer for sure. The feedings could also be causing excess nitrates as well. If there is uneaten food or a lot of liquid you are adding to the tank at feeding, all these factors could be adding to the prob. Definitely cup back on the feeding and get rid of the sponge. Don't worry about the sandbed yet. A lot of BB people rip on us. Do you have a proper cleanup crew for the DSB? What fish and how many do you have in the tank? __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/21/2006, 11:37 PM	#12
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	I have 4 fish.....2 false perculas, orchid dottyback and a neon gobby. I also have 2 skunk cleaner shrimp, about 6 red reef hermit crabs, tuxedo sea urchin (not sure if he is considered clean up crew), 1 cerith snail, a couple margarita snails, some whelks (hitchhikers). I had some nassarius snails but they died off. Not sure if whelks got to them. Do I need anything else? I will remove the sponge. I like the idea of a DSB.....it is what is in the ocean.

11/21/2006, 11:49 PM	#13
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	How is your flow? Have you got any black spots in that sandbed, anything you can see? You might get a fighting conch---medium to small size: they can burrow into the sandbed and deal with that...but not until you catch those whelks, if that's what they are! The strombus grazer snail looks like a whelk, but never grows beyond a third of an inch long. A whelk actually preys on other snails. You do know that nassarius snails burrow into the sand and live there... Your urchin is a good piece of cleanup crew. But you need more snails, and you need them to survive. Do you have bristleworms? They would be a very good thing. They clean where snails can't go. And is your skimmer working? How often do you empty the collection cup? S/b at least weekly. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

11/22/2006, 12:11 AM	#14
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	Sk8r-thanx for the response! I think my flow is good. I have a 9.5 mag drive in my sump with 2 returns (each return divides into 2). I don't have black spots in sand bed. For sure they are whelks.They are about 1 inch long. I thought I had 2 or 3 until I started to remove them and put them into my sump (I didn't want to kill them.....I know, kinda girly). I have removed 10 of them and I was wondering if somehow, someway they were getting back into my tank. I know nassarius snails live in the sand bed. When I had them, I loved to watch them come out to feed. Reminds me of night of the living dead. What snails/how many do you think I should get? I have lotsa bristleworms. No problem there. I don't get alot of skimmate. It is light green and I posted about this before but no one had any answers. I got a new ASM G2 in Aug. I know it is large for my tank but someday.... I want to upgrade. I was wondering if it is working too well and that is the reason I don't get too much skimmate. Most is skimmed out. Also, for a while I was doing the massive water changes. Maybe my water was "too clean".

11/22/2006, 12:13 AM	#15
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	Sounds like you are doing everything you should be then. What nitrate test kit are you using? __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/22/2006, 12:23 AM	#16
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	I use salifert. But I must admit, it is kinda difficult to distinguish the pinks. I double checked it with another kit (don't know name) and they both came out the same. The frustating thing for me is that I do think I am doing alot of the right things. This nitrate thing is a mind boggler. Being a scientific type of person, this is driving me crazy cuz it does not make sense. drummereef-thanks for taking your time with your responses. I truly appreciate it!

11/22/2006, 12:25 AM	#17
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	I'd check it in a couple of days now that the sponge is history. That really could be the issue mostly. Sounds like your husbandry is right on. __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/22/2006, 12:29 AM	#18
Sk8r RC Mod Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Spokane WA Posts: 34,628 Blog Entries: 55	Just go on catching those whelks. Looks like you got a prime infestation of them with some rock or other. I'm betting when you get the sponge out, that could be part of it. Also, if you have portions of that complex food that aren't being eaten at all by certain elements of your tank, that might be a source of nitrate. Maybe going over to a simple food like cyclopeeze for a while might help sort it out. Just thinking out loud here. If your lfs can test the TDS of the ro/di water, that might be a good thing, too. We live in a farming area, and nitrates COME in our tapwater. The ro/di ought to totally get it out, but if something in there's not working right, that could be something to look at if other remediation doesn't work. __________________ Sk8r Salinity 1.024-6; alkalinity 8.3-9.3 on KH scale; calcium 420; magnesium 1300, temp 78-80, nitrate .2. Ammonia 0. No filters: lps tank. Alk and cal won't rise if mg is low. Current Tank Info: 105g AquaVim wedge, yellow tang, sailfin blenny,royal gramma, ocellaris clown pair, yellow watchman, 100 microceriths, 25 tiny hermits, a 4" conch, 1" nassarius, recovering from 2 year hiatus with daily water change of 10%.

11/22/2006, 12:32 AM	#19
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	Thanks again drummereef! Is it possible that the nitrate can go down that fast after removing the sponge? BTW-before this skimmer, I had a different one that did not have a sponge. Still had a nitrate problem and still had no skimmate (I thought it was not working so that is why I went out and bought the ASM G2) Crazy!!!!!!!

11/22/2006, 12:36 AM	#20
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	It's possible I suppose. Since you are removing the source, I would do a water change and test after that. Hopefully that's all it is. It's so close with your nitrates only reading between 7-10. That last little bit is always hard to pin down. The ASM should smoke - nice skimmer. Don't tell me your other skimmer was a skilter or seaclone. If the food you are feeding (secret recipe) is frozen, I would drain the liquid off and feed only the solid food. Could be a contributor. __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/22/2006, 12:42 AM	#21
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	no it wasn't. it was a sealife systems. my reef guy told it was a good design. he even put it into his tank and you should have seen all the skimmate it produced! i never heard of skilter but have heard of seaclone. it has a bad rap. surprised they are still selling. btw-gateway from the west...are you from st louis?

11/22/2006, 12:44 AM	#22
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	Yup, St. Louis is where I hail from. I love Chicago, though. Wish I lived there sometimes. __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/22/2006, 12:50 AM	#23
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	i have been to st louis a few times......for hawks/blues games! fun city!!!!!

11/22/2006, 12:54 AM	#24
drummereef Team RC Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: STL Posts: 14,754	Ah, nice. The Blues majorly suck this year... I mean the last 5 years. I don't really follow hockey, but I know enough to know they are really not good. __________________ -Brett 180g Marineland Starfire In-Wall 278 gallon system

11/22/2006, 12:58 AM	#25
moon jelly Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: a fine sturdy box by the airport Posts: 3,430	the hawks have sucked for even longer. congrats on the cardinals world series win. tony larussa used to be the manager of the white sox. i missed the series though cuz i was in namibia. i didn't find out who won the series (or even who was in the world series) til last week when i got home.