uncured rock with arag-alive

myfrostymember · 11/26/2006, 07:25 PM

arag-alive supposedly has millions of bacteria- is it ok to put uncured rock in with arag-alive substrate-

i am starting my tank up and was thinking about uncured live rock from premium aquatics. i am not sure if a full tank of uncured lr is ok with that substrate-- i am not looking at uncured for money purpose but to recieve as much live and dead materials on my rock as possible-- has anyone used this substrate with uncured lr?--or anyone used premium aquatics uncured live rock with any advice on it?

TekCat · 11/26/2006, 07:29 PM

I've got rocks from PA and was happy with their LR (uncured).

IMHO, save some money and get dead sand (aragonite). There will be plenty bacteria on LR to seed dead sand in no time.

Tip: cure LR in tub or in tank WITHOUT sand. There will be dead junk falling off rocks. With sand, it'll be harder to siphone it out without trapping some junk in sand bed.

Good luck and REEF ON!!!

myfrostymember · 11/26/2006, 07:48 PM

you can put cured lr in with the sand though correct? not as much falling off of it ?

TekCat · 11/26/2006, 07:55 PM

nope, especially with uncured LR there will be lots of junk falling off. It is better to cure LR without sand. Besides it is alot easier to do your aquascaping without sand.
Sand can be added later.

GroYurOwn · 11/27/2006, 03:25 PM

cure the rock in your tank first for maybe a week, let the dead stuff fall off. then put dry sand in, it cost so much less, your water will be full of bacteria from the rock, your sand will be live in a matter of days guaranteed. i have seeded dry sand with one pound of LR rubble

FullPull · 11/27/2006, 07:42 PM

GroYurOwn......... you mean just pour your sand in around your rock ? or pull the rock out untill sand is down ?. I'm about at this stage right now so I'm getting ready to start this reef stuff for the first time..A bit nerve racking I might say.

bertoni · 11/27/2006, 07:47 PM

I cure my live rock with the sand in the tank. It'll work, although some people probably find it harder to remove debris that way. If the tank is going to have a shallow sand bed, say 1" or so, you can pour the sand into the tank after the live rock has cured. That'll work, too.

Shagsbeard · 11/27/2006, 08:33 PM

Live sand is pretty much only useful if you're setting up a tank with plastic coral as deco. Live rock has so much of the benificial bacteria we're looking to cultivate that adding more with the sand is simply overkill. Die off and wastes from the live rock is more than sufficient to keep the bacteria happy and fed, so no real need for the shrimp added either. You can feed the critters in the live rock a bit if you want... but don't over do it.

bertoni · 11/27/2006, 08:41 PM

Well, I'm not sure that I'd go that far. If the tank is going to have a live DSB for nitrate reduction, bacteria and other microbes alone won't do the job. The sand will need infauna to provide water circulation and nutrient processing.

GroYurOwn · 11/27/2006, 09:00 PM

what we need and what we want may not always be the same thing. you may not need LS...unless you want about a million times more bio-diversity, and something that makes your reef more natural looking, thats what i have chosen, and i will probably never have a bare bottom, i love having a sand bed, but it doesnt sound like that is the question here....when i say you dont need to buy LS (araga-live) i mean you dont HAVE to, your rock will seed the sand, i know this from experience, i havent bought a bag of live sand from a fish store since i was a newbie. think about all of the stuff that hitch hikes out of other tanks on those rocks your corals are attached to. and i never hesitate to ask a GOOD lfs for a cup of their sand, every little bit helps, but your rock will seed the sand bed, thats why bare bottom tanks work.

ANYWAY, as far as your question fullpull, i would lay down what is going to be your base rock first (after cleaning up the die-off) then pour the sand down, that way you have a nice sturdy foundation for your reef. try to keep the amount of rock that touches the sandbed to a minimum after you lay the base rock, what i mean is, try to allow for some space for water to flow beneath your rock work, around it, etc. below is my (and my best friends) tank before we moved. it was started with 80% dry rock, and some live sand, which helped to seed the dry rock (works either way as long as SOMETHING is live) and i think it did pretty well!

myfrostymember · 11/27/2006, 11:38 PM

sounds good guys- but is there actually something wrong with putting the sand in and then doing your rock scaping a little bit latter(4-5 days)--or is it just to prevent the die off from seting on the sand?

GroYurOwn · 11/28/2006, 12:05 AM

no, its not a cut and dry thing, you can do it however you want and you will be fine. just mae sure you sink some of the base rock down into the sand for your foundation.

GroYurOwn · 11/28/2006, 12:07 AM

and try to get as much of that die-off out as possible.

myfrostymember · 11/28/2006, 12:16 AM

will a good clean up crew not take care of any of the die off- or will it just build up to much bad nutrients?

GroYurOwn · 11/28/2006, 12:23 AM

again, no for sure answers, depends on the amount of die off, i would personally remove as much as possible. the die-off will cause an ammonia spike, the more die-off, the bigger the spike, the more stress is caused to inhabitants, the more casualties to your crew, they may be tough, but they arent invincible, so help them help you! if you have large sponges that are dying off, clumps of algae, anything that you could remove easily i would suggest doing that. just keep in mind that you are building the basis of your future husbandry habits now, so now is a good time to start good habits. dont count on the tank to take care of itself just yet...first you have to take care of it, you do that right for a while, then it takes care of itself.

bertoni · 11/28/2006, 12:45 PM

I agree that removing organic debris can reduce stress on animals in the live rock.

I set up my tanks by adding sand, then curing the live rock in the tank.

11/26/2006, 07:25 PM	#1
myfrostymember Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 503	uncured rock with arag-alive arag-alive supposedly has millions of bacteria- is it ok to put uncured rock in with arag-alive substrate- i am starting my tank up and was thinking about uncured live rock from premium aquatics. i am not sure if a full tank of uncured lr is ok with that substrate-- i am not looking at uncured for money purpose but to recieve as much live and dead materials on my rock as possible-- has anyone used this substrate with uncured lr?--or anyone used premium aquatics uncured live rock with any advice on it?

11/27/2006, 07:42 PM	#6
FullPull Registered Member Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Hawthorn PA Posts: 216	GroYurOwn......... you mean just pour your sand in around your rock ? or pull the rock out untill sand is down ?. I'm about at this stage right now so I'm getting ready to start this reef stuff for the first time..A bit nerve racking I might say. __________________ If Duct Tape wasn't meant to fix everything...Why can you get in so many @%#$@ colors !!!! Current Tank Info: 55 gl, 20 gl sump, GU10 Led, Reef Keeper lite, Modded CSS 125 Skimmer, Phosban Reactor, Mag 7 Return Pump, DIY Refugium

11/27/2006, 07:47 PM	#7
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I cure my live rock with the sand in the tank. It'll work, although some people probably find it harder to remove debris that way. If the tank is going to have a shallow sand bed, say 1" or so, you can pour the sand into the tank after the live rock has cured. That'll work, too. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/27/2006, 08:41 PM	#9
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	Well, I'm not sure that I'd go that far. If the tank is going to have a live DSB for nitrate reduction, bacteria and other microbes alone won't do the job. The sand will need infauna to provide water circulation and nutrient processing. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/28/2006, 12:45 PM	#16
bertoni RC Mod Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Mountain View, CA, USA Posts: 88,616	I agree that removing organic debris can reduce stress on animals in the live rock. I set up my tanks by adding sand, then curing the live rock in the tank. __________________ Jonathan Bertoni

11/26/2006, 07:29 PM	#2
TekCat Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: MN Posts: 3,130	I've got rocks from PA and was happy with their LR (uncured). IMHO, save some money and get dead sand (aragonite). There will be plenty bacteria on LR to seed dead sand in no time. Tip: cure LR in tub or in tank WITHOUT sand. There will be dead junk falling off rocks. With sand, it'll be harder to siphone it out without trapping some junk in sand bed. Good luck and REEF ON!!!

11/26/2006, 07:48 PM	#3
myfrostymember Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 503	you can put cured lr in with the sand though correct? not as much falling off of it ?

11/26/2006, 07:55 PM	#4
TekCat Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: MN Posts: 3,130	nope, especially with uncured LR there will be lots of junk falling off. It is better to cure LR without sand. Besides it is alot easier to do your aquascaping without sand. Sand can be added later.

11/27/2006, 03:25 PM	#5
GroYurOwn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Beaverton, OR Posts: 527	cure the rock in your tank first for maybe a week, let the dead stuff fall off. then put dry sand in, it cost so much less, your water will be full of bacteria from the rock, your sand will be live in a matter of days guaranteed. i have seeded dry sand with one pound of LR rubble

11/27/2006, 08:33 PM	#8
Shagsbeard Registered Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Morro Bay, CA Posts: 2,143	Live sand is pretty much only useful if you're setting up a tank with plastic coral as deco. Live rock has so much of the benificial bacteria we're looking to cultivate that adding more with the sand is simply overkill. Die off and wastes from the live rock is more than sufficient to keep the bacteria happy and fed, so no real need for the shrimp added either. You can feed the critters in the live rock a bit if you want... but don't over do it.

11/27/2006, 09:00 PM	#10
GroYurOwn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Beaverton, OR Posts: 527	what we need and what we want may not always be the same thing. you may not need LS...unless you want about a million times more bio-diversity, and something that makes your reef more natural looking, thats what i have chosen, and i will probably never have a bare bottom, i love having a sand bed, but it doesnt sound like that is the question here....when i say you dont need to buy LS (araga-live) i mean you dont HAVE to, your rock will seed the sand, i know this from experience, i havent bought a bag of live sand from a fish store since i was a newbie. think about all of the stuff that hitch hikes out of other tanks on those rocks your corals are attached to. and i never hesitate to ask a GOOD lfs for a cup of their sand, every little bit helps, but your rock will seed the sand bed, thats why bare bottom tanks work. ANYWAY, as far as your question fullpull, i would lay down what is going to be your base rock first (after cleaning up the die-off) then pour the sand down, that way you have a nice sturdy foundation for your reef. try to keep the amount of rock that touches the sandbed to a minimum after you lay the base rock, what i mean is, try to allow for some space for water to flow beneath your rock work, around it, etc. below is my (and my best friends) tank before we moved. it was started with 80% dry rock, and some live sand, which helped to seed the dry rock (works either way as long as SOMETHING is live) and i think it did pretty well!

11/27/2006, 11:38 PM	#11
myfrostymember Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 503	sounds good guys- but is there actually something wrong with putting the sand in and then doing your rock scaping a little bit latter(4-5 days)--or is it just to prevent the die off from seting on the sand?

11/28/2006, 12:05 AM	#12
GroYurOwn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Beaverton, OR Posts: 527	no, its not a cut and dry thing, you can do it however you want and you will be fine. just mae sure you sink some of the base rock down into the sand for your foundation.

11/28/2006, 12:07 AM	#13
GroYurOwn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Beaverton, OR Posts: 527	and try to get as much of that die-off out as possible.

11/28/2006, 12:16 AM	#14
myfrostymember Registered Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Posts: 503	will a good clean up crew not take care of any of the die off- or will it just build up to much bad nutrients?

11/28/2006, 12:23 AM	#15
GroYurOwn Registered Member Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Beaverton, OR Posts: 527	again, no for sure answers, depends on the amount of die off, i would personally remove as much as possible. the die-off will cause an ammonia spike, the more die-off, the bigger the spike, the more stress is caused to inhabitants, the more casualties to your crew, they may be tough, but they arent invincible, so help them help you! if you have large sponges that are dying off, clumps of algae, anything that you could remove easily i would suggest doing that. just keep in mind that you are building the basis of your future husbandry habits now, so now is a good time to start good habits. dont count on the tank to take care of itself just yet...first you have to take care of it, you do that right for a while, then it takes care of itself.