flow rate and sump help

meklo_h2o · 12/02/2006, 02:08 AM

I'm having trouble figuring out how to set up my sump and flow rate. I plan on using a 30 gallon sump for a 90 gallon display tank. I will have a asm g-1 skimmer, fuge, and return. If I use an overflow to drain into my sump will the force of water being pulled out of the sump equal the water draining into the sump? I was planning on using a blueline velocity t3 for my pump. It has 800 gph flow, is that enough? If i plumb the sump with pvc how will I fix the return in the back the tank?

I've looked at the calc. on here but honestly they weren't making much since to me.

Any help clearing this up will appreciated.

M

meklo_h2o · 12/02/2006, 02:10 AM

what precautions do I need to make to ensure that it wont flood into the floor? I plan on putting shut-offs on the drain and return pipes.

M

slvr430ml · 12/02/2006, 03:07 AM

you would like a flow rate of 1200gph thats kinda over kill but its nice to start off right. you would need a pump that size and an overflow to be at a higher rate like 1400gph so you tank doesnt overflow hope this helps

staticx · 12/02/2006, 06:51 AM

Do you have a hob overflow if so make sure your sump can hold enough water to not over flow if your return pump shuts off

a4twenty · 12/02/2006, 08:22 AM

1200 gph through a 30g sump is way to much. the general rule for sump flow is 3 - 5 times the display tank's volume, so 270 - 450 gph approx. ( make sure to account for head pressure when choosing a pump )

your overflow should be rated higher than the flow to the tank so it can keep up with you pump going at full speed.

it doesn't matter whether it's a HOB or not you will have to leave enough room in the sump for all the water in the lines and tank ( above the overflow when running ) probably 5 - 10g would be a good guestimate.

staticx · 12/02/2006, 08:38 AM

Why do you think 1200gph for that sump is too much, what are you going to base that off of ??just wondering

JRaquatics · 12/02/2006, 08:59 AM

Staticx:1200gph is way too much for a fuge.
Meklo: If you have a reef ready 90 gal like I have, your overflow will really only handle around 700gph. I have a mag9 on my return and is just a little too much for the overflow. You just want to make sure that your baffles are low enough to handle the remaining water through the overflow when the power goes out. I also used a 30gal fora sump/fuge andmade my baffles 12in high and works good for me.

green814 · 12/02/2006, 09:19 AM

I am in the process of setting up a 75g myself & am trying to figure out what pump to go w/ for a return.

I have been advised to have aprox. 10x the total water volume for TOTAL WATER FLOW. With 3-5x the display tank as mentioned flowing through your sump. It has been said if you have a higher flow rate in the sump then you do not get the benifit's a sump is capable of. I have had more than 1 person point me towards melevs reef http://www.melevsreef.com/. He has a lot of different sump layout's and an article about the benifit of a sump.

Look at the closed loop system for the remainder of your water flow requirments. It was suggested that for the closed loop to have to scwd's, one soaking in vinegar/water & using the other for about a month or so, then switching. Crazy? Not sure. But I was able to buy 2 (1 b.n., 1 used ) for $30 so I figured why not. Worst case I have a back up.

Do you plan on having a refuge also for macro or cheato? How do you plan on laying your sump out?

For the calc., try to est. how many feet of pipe you have going up( from floor to ceiling ( verticle)), the how many feet that will lay horizontal, how many valve's if any, how many 45 & 90 elbow's, etc. Don't forget to include any extra in the pipe length: i.e.-I am going to have a u.v. on my return, so I will include this in the pipe length.

Good luck & keep us posted how you are doing.

I am in the same "boat" you are trying to figue this all out, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF HELP OUT THERE. And for that THANK YOU!
Again, this is what I have learned so far in a short amount of time so please use others advice as well.
Chris

cayars · 12/02/2006, 09:21 AM

It really depends on the setup of your sump. For example is your protein skimmer in the sump? If so you probably want to use a return pump a size or two above the pump size on your protein skimmer otherwise you will be moving so much water that your protein skimmer misses a lot of the water. You want to try and setup the sump area so that the skimmer gets to process as close to 100% of the water as possible.

Also I can tell you from experience that if you run 1200 gph you will need an overflow with atleast 2 1" pipes/tubes or it won't be able to handle the flow and water will gush over the sides of the tank.

If you have the syphon based overflow tubes then you will also probably want to run an airline up to the top of each and connect these to a powerhead situated next to the overflow so it can "suck out" the air bubbles that get in the overflow tubes. If one gets an air pocket then you will have the water gush over the sides of the tank. When you run this high of a flow the water spilling into the overflow box has a lot of bubbles in it that CAN/WILL cause you troubles without the airline trick. Might not happen right away but gurantee it will at some point.

Just a few thoughts to ponder.

green814 · 12/02/2006, 09:27 AM

JR
What type of overflow setup do you have internal/hob? I ask because I am going to use a cpr cs102 (maybe over rated for my tank 75g-but am going to "choke" one drain by reducing flow & gravity feed a phosban reactor) I was wondering how much drain back w/ a power outage you get. I know this will vary a litte since the plumbing set/up won't be the same. I plan on using a 15h for a t/o & fuge tank, than I was looking at a 29g for my p/s & return.
Thank you
Chris

a4twenty · 12/02/2006, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by staticx
Why do you think 1200gph for that sump is too much, what are you going to base that off of ??just wondering

if you are using a 30g tank you are probably running about 20g in the sump( even less with the space the LR and equipment take up ) . at 1200gph you would be putting 20g/min through the sump. there would be no time for filtering and the micro bubbles would be huge.

JRaquatics · 12/02/2006, 10:02 AM

Chris:With a CPR hang on the back overflow, the amount of drain back water depends on the level you set the skim grate that hangs on the inside of your tank and the amount of extra water you have in your display beyond the teeth of your overflow. As for mine it is minimal because I have a reef ready overflow with a durso. So my drain feeding my sump is very close to the surface in my overflow. I might get at most 2 gals in my sump when the power goes out. You should never have to choke your overflow, you may have to choke your return pump if it is to powerful and your overflow can't keep up. It all works by gravity so soon as the overflow can't recieve any more water from the display then that is when the sump will stop filling with water (unless your return pipe is below water level, then you will have a siphon created on your return line.

JRaquatics · 12/02/2006, 10:05 AM

a4twenty: don't forget to mention the wonderful sound of the flush as the overflow tries to keep up if it is under rated like the reef ready set ups.

green814 · 12/02/2006, 10:16 AM

JR
My cpr has 2-1" drains. I was going to use one &split it to feed into the fuge/p.s. area. The other drain (limit the flow) I was going to gravity feed a phosban reactor which would the drain into my retrun area. The cpr is rated at 1200gph. I know I don't need this much so that was my idea.
Just how low should I set the cpr? Any idea
Chris

trick440 · 12/02/2006, 10:20 AM

Its such a common mistake to run to much flow through your sump.o

A sump is designed for hiding your equipment, removing air bubbles and increasing water volume. Thats pretty much it. Increasing flow in the display tank is not one of its jobs... it does increase some flow.. like a 100gph in your case. (30g, holding 20g of water... so 20g x 5 = 100gph)

12/02/2006, 02:08 AM	#1
meklo_h2o Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 67	flow rate and sump help I'm having trouble figuring out how to set up my sump and flow rate. I plan on using a 30 gallon sump for a 90 gallon display tank. I will have a asm g-1 skimmer, fuge, and return. If I use an overflow to drain into my sump will the force of water being pulled out of the sump equal the water draining into the sump? I was planning on using a blueline velocity t3 for my pump. It has 800 gph flow, is that enough? If i plumb the sump with pvc how will I fix the return in the back the tank? I've looked at the calc. on here but honestly they weren't making much since to me. Any help clearing this up will appreciated. M

12/02/2006, 02:10 AM	#2
meklo_h2o Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 67	what precautions do I need to make to ensure that it wont flood into the floor? I plan on putting shut-offs on the drain and return pipes. M

12/02/2006, 03:07 AM	#3
slvr430ml Registered Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: orange county Posts: 7	you would like a flow rate of 1200gph thats kinda over kill but its nice to start off right. you would need a pump that size and an overflow to be at a higher rate like 1400gph so you tank doesnt overflow hope this helps

12/02/2006, 06:51 AM	#4
staticx Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: oregon Posts: 825	Do you have a hob overflow if so make sure your sump can hold enough water to not over flow if your return pump shuts off

12/02/2006, 08:22 AM	#5
a4twenty Premium Member Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Ontario, Canada Posts: 2,603	1200 gph through a 30g sump is way to much. the general rule for sump flow is 3 - 5 times the display tank's volume, so 270 - 450 gph approx. ( make sure to account for head pressure when choosing a pump ) your overflow should be rated higher than the flow to the tank so it can keep up with you pump going at full speed. it doesn't matter whether it's a HOB or not you will have to leave enough room in the sump for all the water in the lines and tank ( above the overflow when running ) probably 5 - 10g would be a good guestimate.

12/02/2006, 08:38 AM	#6
staticx Moved On Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: oregon Posts: 825	Why do you think 1200gph for that sump is too much, what are you going to base that off of ??just wondering

12/02/2006, 08:59 AM	#7
JRaquatics Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: On RC Posts: 3,609	Staticx:1200gph is way too much for a fuge. Meklo: If you have a reef ready 90 gal like I have, your overflow will really only handle around 700gph. I have a mag9 on my return and is just a little too much for the overflow. You just want to make sure that your baffles are low enough to handle the remaining water through the overflow when the power goes out. I also used a 30gal fora sump/fuge andmade my baffles 12in high and works good for me.

12/02/2006, 09:19 AM	#8
green814 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Swartz Creek, Mi Posts: 144	I am in the process of setting up a 75g myself & am trying to figure out what pump to go w/ for a return. I have been advised to have aprox. 10x the total water volume for TOTAL WATER FLOW. With 3-5x the display tank as mentioned flowing through your sump. It has been said if you have a higher flow rate in the sump then you do not get the benifit's a sump is capable of. I have had more than 1 person point me towards melevs reef http://www.melevsreef.com/. He has a lot of different sump layout's and an article about the benifit of a sump. Look at the closed loop system for the remainder of your water flow requirments. It was suggested that for the closed loop to have to scwd's, one soaking in vinegar/water & using the other for about a month or so, then switching. Crazy? Not sure. But I was able to buy 2 (1 b.n., 1 used ) for $30 so I figured why not. Worst case I have a back up. Do you plan on having a refuge also for macro or cheato? How do you plan on laying your sump out? For the calc., try to est. how many feet of pipe you have going up( from floor to ceiling ( verticle)), the how many feet that will lay horizontal, how many valve's if any, how many 45 & 90 elbow's, etc. Don't forget to include any extra in the pipe length: i.e.-I am going to have a u.v. on my return, so I will include this in the pipe length. Good luck & keep us posted how you are doing. I am in the same "boat" you are trying to figue this all out, BUT WE HAVE A LOT OF HELP OUT THERE. And for that THANK YOU! Again, this is what I have learned so far in a short amount of time so please use others advice as well. Chris

12/02/2006, 09:21 AM	#9
cayars Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Bordentown, New Jersey Posts: 653	It really depends on the setup of your sump. For example is your protein skimmer in the sump? If so you probably want to use a return pump a size or two above the pump size on your protein skimmer otherwise you will be moving so much water that your protein skimmer misses a lot of the water. You want to try and setup the sump area so that the skimmer gets to process as close to 100% of the water as possible. Also I can tell you from experience that if you run 1200 gph you will need an overflow with atleast 2 1" pipes/tubes or it won't be able to handle the flow and water will gush over the sides of the tank. If you have the syphon based overflow tubes then you will also probably want to run an airline up to the top of each and connect these to a powerhead situated next to the overflow so it can "suck out" the air bubbles that get in the overflow tubes. If one gets an air pocket then you will have the water gush over the sides of the tank. When you run this high of a flow the water spilling into the overflow box has a lot of bubbles in it that CAN/WILL cause you troubles without the airline trick. Might not happen right away but gurantee it will at some point. Just a few thoughts to ponder.

12/02/2006, 09:27 AM	#10
green814 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Swartz Creek, Mi Posts: 144	JR What type of overflow setup do you have internal/hob? I ask because I am going to use a cpr cs102 (maybe over rated for my tank 75g-but am going to "choke" one drain by reducing flow & gravity feed a phosban reactor) I was wondering how much drain back w/ a power outage you get. I know this will vary a litte since the plumbing set/up won't be the same. I plan on using a 15h for a t/o & fuge tank, than I was looking at a 29g for my p/s & return. Thank you Chris

12/02/2006, 10:02 AM	#12
JRaquatics Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: On RC Posts: 3,609	Chris:With a CPR hang on the back overflow, the amount of drain back water depends on the level you set the skim grate that hangs on the inside of your tank and the amount of extra water you have in your display beyond the teeth of your overflow. As for mine it is minimal because I have a reef ready overflow with a durso. So my drain feeding my sump is very close to the surface in my overflow. I might get at most 2 gals in my sump when the power goes out. You should never have to choke your overflow, you may have to choke your return pump if it is to powerful and your overflow can't keep up. It all works by gravity so soon as the overflow can't recieve any more water from the display then that is when the sump will stop filling with water (unless your return pipe is below water level, then you will have a siphon created on your return line.

12/02/2006, 10:05 AM	#13
JRaquatics Awaiting Email Confirmation Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: On RC Posts: 3,609	a4twenty: don't forget to mention the wonderful sound of the flush as the overflow tries to keep up if it is under rated like the reef ready set ups.

12/02/2006, 10:16 AM	#14
green814 Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Swartz Creek, Mi Posts: 144	JR My cpr has 2-1" drains. I was going to use one &split it to feed into the fuge/p.s. area. The other drain (limit the flow) I was going to gravity feed a phosban reactor which would the drain into my retrun area. The cpr is rated at 1200gph. I know I don't need this much so that was my idea. Just how low should I set the cpr? Any idea Chris

12/02/2006, 10:20 AM	#15
trick440 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Posts: 117	Its such a common mistake to run to much flow through your sump.o A sump is designed for hiding your equipment, removing air bubbles and increasing water volume. Thats pretty much it. Increasing flow in the display tank is not one of its jobs... it does increase some flow.. like a 100gph in your case. (30g, holding 20g of water... so 20g x 5 = 100gph)