Let's talk about Polyp Extension in an SPS tank

dirtyreefer · 12/09/2006, 02:27 PM

I have kept SPS for about 2 years now, I am a two part doser and am a heavy skimmer. I for the life of me have never had good polyp extension on my acros. Montis are fine and show good extension.

I will buy a colony or frag from somewhere that has great polyp extension only to bring it home and slowly dwindle to nothing over a few days/weeks. My colors are great, and I get good growth.

I have a 94g cube (30x30) with a Sfiligoi Infinity XR4 250W HQI lighting the tank as well as an H&S A200-2x1260 skimming it. Both are sufficient in those departments. I also have two Tunze 6000s blasting in the tank which provides plenty of flow for a 30" long tank and grow cheato in my sump.

I have tested PO4 and NO3, and my nitrates around between 5-7 PPM and phosphates are 0. I have tried using those supplements (Polyp Labs Reefresh) which brought my nitrates down to 0, but did not change PE so I'm not convinced that it's nitrates that are causing the problem.

Other readings are:
Ca - 450ppm
Mg - 1400
Alk - 10dkh

There must be some link between nutrients or something in the tank which causes the polyps to retract. I almost think that nutrient poor tanks cause polyps to extend because they're "hungry", but I am not really sure on that one. I always thought that maybe it's because I dose two parts or some sorta buildup of chlorides but I've also seen many two part dosers tanks which have great PE.

I think one of the beauties of acropora is their polyps and it really sucks that I don't get to enjoy that in my tank. Does anyone have any suggestions on what could be the problem?

Jeremy Blaze · 12/09/2006, 02:34 PM

It has been my experince that fish can play a huge roll in polyp extension.

What fish do you have in this tank?

Jeremy Blaze · 12/09/2006, 02:34 PM

BTW your avatar freaks me out!

glaudds · 12/09/2006, 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Blaze
It has been my experince that fish can play a huge roll in polyp extension.

What fish do you have in this tank?

I'm in the same boat...I only get most of my polyp extension when the lights are out. I suspect it's my flame angel bothering the corals during the day.

Jeremy Blaze · 12/09/2006, 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by glaudds
I suspect it's my flame angel bothering the corals during the day.

Very,very likely.

SDguy · 12/09/2006, 04:13 PM

I agree...though my experience is limited, I have lots of PE during the day. I only have anthias and flasher wrasses and a tang, so no nipping...not even close. I admit though the PE during the night is CRAZY...doesn't even look like it could possibly fit back into the coralite.

dirtyreefer · 12/09/2006, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Jeremy Blaze
It has been my experince that fish can play a huge roll in polyp extension.

What fish do you have in this tank?

Good question, however I've even had this problem when I've had two clownfish in the tank only.

Right now I have a RS Regal Angel, Purple Tang, Orchid Dottyback, Sunburst Anthia, and a False Percula Clown. That is it.

The polyps do come out at night, but not as much as they have when the coral was in the previous tank.

cwegescheide · 12/09/2006, 04:52 PM

I have a 6100 and a 6200 in a standard 90 gallon tank on a controller. I feed pretty well and have a small amount of fish. One funny thing I noticed when one of my Tunzes froze up on me... My polyp extension was very much increased on ALL my corals. My thinking was that I have just A LOT of flow in there and it might be too much. With the 1 Tunze going the extension was probably tripple what it was with both going. I think maybe those who have good polyp extension might possibly have a little less flow??? Maybe try turning one of your pumps off for a day or two and see what happens?

Chris

twon8 · 12/09/2006, 05:23 PM

ive got tons of flow and i have great pe

op, do you have the mulitcontroller?

twon8 · 12/09/2006, 05:24 PM

also, what types of acros do you have?

do mille;s not have pe?

Neptune777 · 12/09/2006, 05:30 PM

Positive you don't have Red Bugs (any other predators/parasites)? I noticed superb PE after eliminating RB's....

panic · 12/09/2006, 05:49 PM

Angels, butterflys, and sometimes emerald crabs have all been culprits IME

MiddletonMark · 12/09/2006, 05:52 PM

Is it a problem that there's no PE, or just not preferred?

cbonito · 12/09/2006, 05:59 PM

How high are your halides from the water's surface?

I used to have mine about 4-5 inches up and raising them gave me polyp extension. Try that.

reefman77 · 12/09/2006, 06:13 PM

Im thinking It might be the regal angel

cwegescheide · 12/09/2006, 10:20 PM

I've got my Tunze's on a multicontroller.

dukes707 · 12/09/2006, 10:27 PM

i've been haveing the same problem. any sherlock holmes would be most appreciated.

fload · 12/09/2006, 10:28 PM

i also just had my vortec freez up and have noticed almost double the amount of PE... odd

Saldarya · 12/09/2006, 10:31 PM

I too have noticed a correlation between momentary decreased flow and PE. In my case I do have pretty good PE throughout the day, and in most cases, it does increase at night. That being said, my Tunze are on the night mode, so, flow does drop to its lowest setting when the lights go out. This is also when I feed, in the dark ( I believe it to be more natural). So, it could be argued that PE is a trained thing to some.

To the OP I would ask for some more feedback surrounding any correlation to decreased flow, decreased lighting and feeding times. Do these things increase your PE?

I too dose 2 part, so I dont think that is an issue.

Here is an example of my day time PE on a tenius I believe.

dots · 12/09/2006, 10:37 PM

I have heard you can "train" them to come out by feeding towards the middle of the light cycle. I think certain types are more prone to PE than others......Chips Acro for instance. Of course all of the above, light, fish, and water quality always play a part.

dirtyreefer · 12/09/2006, 11:34 PM

Wow great questions and responses so far. Let's see if I can answer the questions above about my tank:

I have my Tunzes on a multicontroller, and actually have lowered both of them to 40% because it is just too much flow if any higher.

For acros I've got millis and they show little to no PE, however during the night they show decent extension but not as much as I've seen in other people's tanks.

I don't have red bugs, I've had them before in my previous tank and I know what to look for when they are present.

I prefer to have PE, I don't believe it's a problem health-wise since they have good coloration and growth.

My halides are about 20" from the water surface.

I wonder if I should kill the Tunzes for a day to see what happens? I'm not sure what else can be done. I might give it a try but any other suggestions or first hand experiences on how to solve this issue would be great.

messy1messmer · 12/10/2006, 12:02 AM

i have a 6000 on my 120 and notice that high flow areas have less PE then low flow areas too. All my fish are considered reef safe

twon8 · 12/10/2006, 12:17 AM

2x6000 in a 94 is not that much flow, i would have them set at 30-100

mille's not having pe is really weird, i've never experienced that. I have green mille four feet directly infront of a 6200 and it is my fastest growing acro, so if anything turn those streams up imo.

dirtyreefer · 12/10/2006, 12:20 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by twon8
2x6000 in a 94 is not that much flow

It's not that much in a 90 long, but mine's a 30x30 which isn't even 3 feet long each way. So it is alot of flow in some ways since the stream's flow are bouncing off the walls

twon8 · 12/10/2006, 12:52 AM

Im aware that it is a cube ( my favorite proportion for a tank) but by having them turned down the overall turnover isn't that much. ive got a 6100 aimed at the back wall in a 90 long, which is only 18" wide, but it bounces off the wall nicely. Even at 3000 gph+ it makes up less than half of my total flow in there.

also by having your's turned up to only 40% you lose a lot of the flow changing effects of the multicontroller.

i dose homemade two part, so another for that list

i wouldn't turn your tunze's off, because even if you do get polyps extension after doing it, it may be caused by the corals not getting enough oxygen. polyp extension isn't always a good thing.

12/09/2006, 02:27 PM	#1
dirtyreefer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 2,221	Let's talk about Polyp Extension in an SPS tank I have kept SPS for about 2 years now, I am a two part doser and am a heavy skimmer. I for the life of me have never had good polyp extension on my acros. Montis are fine and show good extension. I will buy a colony or frag from somewhere that has great polyp extension only to bring it home and slowly dwindle to nothing over a few days/weeks. My colors are great, and I get good growth. I have a 94g cube (30x30) with a Sfiligoi Infinity XR4 250W HQI lighting the tank as well as an H&S A200-2x1260 skimming it. Both are sufficient in those departments. I also have two Tunze 6000s blasting in the tank which provides plenty of flow for a 30" long tank and grow cheato in my sump. I have tested PO4 and NO3, and my nitrates around between 5-7 PPM and phosphates are 0. I have tried using those supplements (Polyp Labs Reefresh) which brought my nitrates down to 0, but did not change PE so I'm not convinced that it's nitrates that are causing the problem. Other readings are: Ca - 450ppm Mg - 1400 Alk - 10dkh There must be some link between nutrients or something in the tank which causes the polyps to retract. I almost think that nutrient poor tanks cause polyps to extend because they're "hungry", but I am not really sure on that one. I always thought that maybe it's because I dose two parts or some sorta buildup of chlorides but I've also seen many two part dosers tanks which have great PE. I think one of the beauties of acropora is their polyps and it really sucks that I don't get to enjoy that in my tank. Does anyone have any suggestions on what could be the problem?

12/09/2006, 02:34 PM	#2
Jeremy Blaze Former Reef Addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Washington, IN Posts: 5,864	It has been my experince that fish can play a huge roll in polyp extension. What fish do you have in this tank? __________________ Trust me my friend, the names are not important at all. I've own hundreds of different zoas and palys and don't know the name of a single one. In my opinion, they are a waste of valuable time. Mucho Reef

12/09/2006, 02:34 PM	#3
Jeremy Blaze Former Reef Addict Join Date: May 2003 Location: New Washington, IN Posts: 5,864	BTW your avatar freaks me out! __________________ Trust me my friend, the names are not important at all. I've own hundreds of different zoas and palys and don't know the name of a single one. In my opinion, they are a waste of valuable time. Mucho Reef

12/09/2006, 04:13 PM	#6
SDguy Fish heads unite! Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: San Diego Posts: 23,384	I agree...though my experience is limited, I have lots of PE during the day. I only have anthias and flasher wrasses and a tang, so no nipping...not even close. I admit though the PE during the night is CRAZY...doesn't even look like it could possibly fit back into the coralite. __________________ Peter SDMAS member Marine tanks since 1989. ><((((º>`·.¸¸.·´¯`·.¸.·´¯`·...¸><((((º> ·´¯`·.¸. , . .·´¯`·.. ><((((º> Current Tank Info: 240g butterfly and angel FOWLR. 15g QT.

12/09/2006, 05:23 PM	#9
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	ive got tons of flow and i have great pe op, do you have the mulitcontroller? __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

12/09/2006, 04:52 PM	#8
cwegescheide YOU have been ignored! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 5,231	I have a 6100 and a 6200 in a standard 90 gallon tank on a controller. I feed pretty well and have a small amount of fish. One funny thing I noticed when one of my Tunzes froze up on me... My polyp extension was very much increased on ALL my corals. My thinking was that I have just A LOT of flow in there and it might be too much. With the 1 Tunze going the extension was probably tripple what it was with both going. I think maybe those who have good polyp extension might possibly have a little less flow??? Maybe try turning one of your pumps off for a day or two and see what happens? Chris

12/09/2006, 05:24 PM	#10
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	also, what types of acros do you have? do mille;s not have pe? __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

12/09/2006, 05:30 PM	#11
Neptune777 Premium Member Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Virginia Posts: 1,700	Positive you don't have Red Bugs (any other predators/parasites)? I noticed superb PE after eliminating RB's....

12/09/2006, 05:49 PM	#12
panic Premium Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Kansas City, MO Posts: 802	Angels, butterflys, and sometimes emerald crabs have all been culprits IME

12/09/2006, 05:52 PM	#13
MiddletonMark Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Madison, WI Posts: 14,441	Is it a problem that there's no PE, or just not preferred? __________________ read a lot, think for yourself Current Tank Info: 58g stony reef [250w10k, 250w 20k MH, 2x vho act, Octopus150, 6060 + 6000] ; 60g mixed tub

12/09/2006, 05:59 PM	#14
cbonito Registered Member Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: michigan Posts: 398	How high are your halides from the water's surface? I used to have mine about 4-5 inches up and raising them gave me polyp extension. Try that. __________________ Cbonito Current Tank Info: 60ish gallon (48x24x12h) reef

12/09/2006, 06:13 PM	#15
reefman77 Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: naperville, IL Posts: 729	Im thinking It might be the regal angel

12/09/2006, 10:20 PM	#16
cwegescheide YOU have been ignored! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 5,231	I've got my Tunze's on a multicontroller.

12/09/2006, 10:27 PM	#17
dukes707 Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: vallejo/707, cali Posts: 363	i've been haveing the same problem. any sherlock holmes would be most appreciated. __________________ helping to save the reefs one coral at a time Current Tank Info: 90g in progress again...

12/09/2006, 10:28 PM	#18
fload Registered Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 145	i also just had my vortec freez up and have noticed almost double the amount of PE... odd __________________ One fish two fish red fish blue fish Current Tank Info: 75 Cube 2x250wMH 14k. ACJR VORTECH TUNZE NANOS (IMBROKE)

12/09/2006, 10:31 PM	#19
Saldarya Moved On Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Lafayette, LA. Posts: 645	I too have noticed a correlation between momentary decreased flow and PE. In my case I do have pretty good PE throughout the day, and in most cases, it does increase at night. That being said, my Tunze are on the night mode, so, flow does drop to its lowest setting when the lights go out. This is also when I feed, in the dark ( I believe it to be more natural). So, it could be argued that PE is a trained thing to some. To the OP I would ask for some more feedback surrounding any correlation to decreased flow, decreased lighting and feeding times. Do these things increase your PE? I too dose 2 part, so I dont think that is an issue. Here is an example of my day time PE on a tenius I believe.

12/09/2006, 10:37 PM	#20
dots Registered Member Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 6,258	I have heard you can "train" them to come out by feeding towards the middle of the light cycle. I think certain types are more prone to PE than others......Chips Acro for instance. Of course all of the above, light, fish, and water quality always play a part. __________________ ~Doug

12/09/2006, 11:34 PM	#21
dirtyreefer Registered Member Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Vancouver Canada Posts: 2,221	Wow great questions and responses so far. Let's see if I can answer the questions above about my tank: I have my Tunzes on a multicontroller, and actually have lowered both of them to 40% because it is just too much flow if any higher. For acros I've got millis and they show little to no PE, however during the night they show decent extension but not as much as I've seen in other people's tanks. I don't have red bugs, I've had them before in my previous tank and I know what to look for when they are present. I prefer to have PE, I don't believe it's a problem health-wise since they have good coloration and growth. My halides are about 20" from the water surface. I wonder if I should kill the Tunzes for a day to see what happens? I'm not sure what else can be done. I might give it a try but any other suggestions or first hand experiences on how to solve this issue would be great.

12/10/2006, 12:02 AM	#22
messy1messmer Registered Member Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: fort collins co Posts: 1,252	i have a 6000 on my 120 and notice that high flow areas have less PE then low flow areas too. All my fish are considered reef safe __________________ Save the world and the reefs Steve Messmer Current Tank Info: 120g sps,lps,zoas, tek T5 8x54, Mrc3, 5 tunze nano streams.

12/10/2006, 12:17 AM	#23
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	2x6000 in a 94 is not that much flow, i would have them set at 30-100 mille's not having pe is really weird, i've never experienced that. I have green mille four feet directly infront of a 6200 and it is my fastest growing acro, so if anything turn those streams up imo. __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank

12/10/2006, 12:52 AM	#25
twon8 Formally registered membe Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: slightly sw of richmond, va Posts: 5,920	Im aware that it is a cube ( my favorite proportion for a tank) but by having them turned down the overall turnover isn't that much. ive got a 6100 aimed at the back wall in a 90 long, which is only 18" wide, but it bounces off the wall nicely. Even at 3000 gph+ it makes up less than half of my total flow in there. also by having your's turned up to only 40% you lose a lot of the flow changing effects of the multicontroller. i dose homemade two part, so another for that list i wouldn't turn your tunze's off, because even if you do get polyps extension after doing it, it may be caused by the corals not getting enough oxygen. polyp extension isn't always a good thing. __________________ Anthony Richmond Reef Club "and as things fell apart, nobody paid much attention." Not building a wall but making a brick Current Tank Info: 300g DD display, 60g frag tank